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  • Another move from US to Kiev... LONG POST

    Hello everyone. First and foremost, please excuse for writing so much, although, browsing through other topics, I understood that it is better to express myself as best as I can in order to get the answers I am looking for. So, here we go.

    P.S. Since I have so much to say, rather than putting my main question at the end, I will put it here at the beginning, just so you will have an idea why I am writing all this.

    “Knowing the current situation in Kiev or Ukraine overall, whether the country will join the EU or not, would most of you consider moving to live in Kiev from US as a downgrade? I am a 26 year old educated man. I am Russian and obviously can speak English, Russian and some Ukrainian. Recently I took a trip over to Kiev to see some of my friends and I fell in love with the city. Now, I am weighing everything and here I am with my whereabouts. I feel like there are a lot more opportunities for someone like I am in Ukraine. Besides opportunities, I think I will have much more luck getting my life straightened out”…

    P.P.S. If you get pissed off easily, please stop reading...

    I was born in one of the former soviet union countries and at the age of 16 I happened to move to the US permanently. I am not going to write out how I had that chance because this is not the point of this thread. Furthermore, I quickly picked up the language by attending a local high school for a year. Then, I attended a community college for 3 years and a university thereafter, which took me an additional 4 years to complete and now I work full time in IT. From the very beginning, I have never gone back to visit my home country or anywhere else, just devoted the time towards my education. By now you would probably think - "What is this guy doing here?" Well, here's the bad part - I am not happy living in America and I will briefly explain why... So far I live here for 10 years and I think that this country is not for me for numerous reasons. I finally came to the realization that the quality of life here isn't as great as I expected it to be.

    People’s sensitivity in America

    People here are way too sensitive about things you tell them; however, nobody has a problem talking rubbish behind someone’s back. Free speech is not as free as it sounds or as they claim. One really has to control what he or she is saying, otherwise they have a high chance of being sued. I have to bite my tongue pretty much all the time and it's so damn annoying. It seems that speaking your mind to individuals is a major taboo in this country. I always had difficulties finding new friends because friendship doesn't exist here which I realized later on. In my opinion, constructive criticism is what friends are for and almost always people are failing at telling someone they care about if something that they do or say is wrong because they are scared about being insultive.

    Everything is ‘AWESOME’

    By watching American movies, almost everyone overseas thinks that everything is "AWESOME" in this country. To be completely honest with you, I can't stand the word "AWESOME". Even though the English language is my second one, I was told that this word should mean something "that which inspires awe", but in the states it means nothing! It doesn’t even mean good - it’s just a word – a filler, like “um” or “y’know”, something that you hear every single day. This word is so stereotypical that it makes my ears bleed every time I hear it. Such positive adjectives that get thrown around like this mean NOTHING these days... "How are you?" is another thing that people ask one another. If you ask someone this question, then you will most likely get "Great!" in return, even when things are far from it. Of course, when you get something like "OK, I guess...", then you may get an idea that things are pear shaped! After all, I don't think the word "bad" is in America's vocabulary... To wrap this up, nothing beats America’s over-positivity more than this:

    SMILES... SMILES mean NOTHING.

    Recently, I took a trip over to Kiev and in all three planes I happened to be with quite a few Americans along the way. During layovers I've heard nothing but complaints. Whatever business they got there, it appears that those people visit Ukraine quite often. What I remembered most is: “That waitress was so rude to me! She didn’t even smile!”... I have something opposite for you, America - You smile way too much! Tell me one thing, guys, why would someone sitting in the subway, working on a crossword puzzle want to look giddy? When people smile in Europe - that actually means something. Depending on situation, fortunately or not, this does not happen too often these days, but when it does - you can be rest assured it is not fake! For example, because Germans don’t go around looking like an American toothpaste commercial when I was with them and they smiled, it lit up the room – you know it’s genuine and you can’t help but smile back, because you are genuinely happy. Apparently, a smile releases endorphins, but if your face is stuck that way I’m sure your dreams of a natural high will fade soon. I’d rather focus on trying to make my life better and have reasons to smile than lie to myself and the world.

    The concept of tipping…

    I don't go to restaurants... At all... You ask me why? Well, for me it was terribly annoying to be in restaurants and having a waitress interrupt me every 3 minutes asking me if everything is OK. Every single time she comes up to ask again, I had to feign a smile and throw a thumbs up just so she can go away because I could not talk with my mouth full. American people would know exactly what I am talking about, but in case if you don't know - she does that not because she truly cares whether if you like your food or not, she does that to make sure you will express your gratitude in the form of a good tip that's all! Eating out was always a bad experience for me in America, but in Kiev it was otherwise. I mean, if I needed something I would call on waitress myself and that's how it is in the rest of the world. I can tell you why it happens this way. That's because in the rest of the world, people don't live off the tips they make but rather work for a wage like everyone else and if they do it bad enough, they'll get fired. But apparently not pestering you every minute and not smiling like you are in a Ms. World competition means you are “rude”. I think the basic concept of tipping is nice – if someone does a top-notch job, sure, throw them an extra few cents or a dollar – but I just see it as a complex system of tax evasion for both restaurants and workers in the states. Some people ludicrously suggest that it makes it cheaper that the restaurant doesn’t have to charge more, but you’re paying the difference anyway. That brings us to a totally different subject about prices where most of those prices are FALSE anyway.

    False prices on EVERYTHING

    Tipping is just the peak of the iceberg. It’s all one big marketing scam to make people feel like they are paying less. The price you see on a menu is nothing compared to what you’ll actually pay. Apart from tipping, you have to of course pay taxes. Now taxes are things that you simply have to pay on items you purchase – it’s how governments work all around the world. So why hide it from us? It boggles my mind that places refuse to include the tax in prices. The price they state is pretty much useless. It’s just saying “this is how much we get from what you pay, but you’ll actually pay more”. I don’t give a flying toss how much YOU get, I want to know how much I have to pay! How much money… do you want me… to hand to you? Do I really have to spell this out? The most laughable of all of these is the “dollar store”. We have this thing in states called "Family Dollar: The Dollar Store" or something like that. If you have a single dollar, you will be turned away from a “dollar” store though. It’s a dollar… that they earn not that you pay. Do you follow? The only thing that matters is the business’s perspective and since nothing else matters. I call it -

    "wasteful consumerism"

    …simply because in the states, it is very difficult to avoid when you are flooded with advertising, even though some of it really is entirely the person’s own fault for being so wasteful. The best example I can think of by far is Apple fanboyism. So many Americans waste so much cash to have the latest iteration of Apple’s iPhone, iPad, or Macbook. When you buy one that’s fine – I personally don’t like Apple products (I find the operating system too restrictive), but there are many good arguments for why it could be better. I also like to have a good smartphone and laptop for example, and I’m as much a consumer as you if you happen to have an Apple equivalent. The problem is when you replace your iPhone 4 with an iPhone 4S, and do it along with an army of millions of other sheep for no good reason. It’s pointless and wasteful consumerism at its best. I have skipped all 5 iPhones (as of December 2013), and I feel good about it and in fact will continue skipping anything Apple makes in the future. Next, I want to talk about idiotic stereotypes that Americans like to throw at people in regard of other countries.

  • #2
    Idiotic American stereotypes of other nations

    Most Americans never travel and therefore have no idea what it’s like in another country. Hell, some of them don’t even travel to neighboring states that surround them because all they do is work all their life, pay bills, mortgage or any other type of debt they may have. They don’t travel because they think they need tens of thousands of dollars, and they don’t enjoy their day because they may miss out on a business opportunity. Luckily, Americans you meet abroad tend to be much cleverer, but meeting those who haven’t travelled made my head hurt with the amount of facepalms I’d have to do. Now, I know there are 300 million of you, but I have had this exact same conversation on both the east and west coast, and in the mid-west and south:


    “Hi, I’m X”
    “Awesome! I’m Y. Where are you from?”
    “… ” (Would rather not say it on here)
    “Um… Where is that?”
    “This country used to be a part of Soviet Union, but it’s a totally separate country now…”
    “Wow! So, Russian, eh? You guys certainly know how to drink!”
    “Actually, I don’t drink…”
    “Oh, you’re not really Russian then, are you!”

    Again, and again and again… and again. The same idiotic script – I knew it was coming every time. Seriously, this level of ignorance and lack of education I have never seen anywhere else… Since I just mentioned education, I could talk about that, but instead I will talk about

    ID checks and stupid drinking laws.

    I find it incredible that drinking age is 21, but you give 16 year olds licenses to drive cars and you can buy a rifle at the age of 18 not to mention American teenagers that have unprotected sex (because of lack of sex education) and have babies when they are babies themselves (totally different subject, which I could talk about but I won’t) as there’s no law about that! Also, you can’t walk around outside with an open drink in most states (but apparently putting it in a brown bag while you drink it makes it OK). I don’t even drink, and I find these laws senseless. I even saw people in grocery stores that were in their 60s getting IDed…

    Religious Americans

    I can’t stand certain Christian affiliations of religious Americans. It’s Jesus this and Jesus that all the friggin time. You really can’t have a normal conversation with them. It’s in your face religion, and they replace hard science with scripture in the classroom, not to mention American churches that look more like drama theaters. They really need to tone it down.

    A country designed for cars, not humans

    I enjoyed my time walking in Kiev on a daily basis. It felt native and reminded me of my childhood. One of my biggest issues in the states has been how terrible a place it is for pedestrians. It’s the worst place in the entire world to live in if you don’t own a car. The only place you can take a walk is at public parks, which aren’t really made for that purpose anyway but rather for kids to play. In many cases I’d be the only pedestrian in the entire block, even if it was in the middle of the week downtown! The country is really designed to get in your car, drive to your destination and get out there. No walk-abouts. During my trip in Kiev, I did not rent a car, even though I had my license with me and everything was so much more convenient, but I really did feel like I was only ever using my feet to work the gas pedal, and I will not miss it at all.

    Always in a hurry

    So many things in America are rushed far too much my liking. Fast food is something we have all around the world now (thanks America…) but even in a classy sit-down restaurant your food will usually come out in less than five minutes after ordering! There are also obsessions with get-rich-quick and lose-fat-quick schemes, pills that solve all your problems after a single swallow, people cutting to the chase in casual conversations far too quickly (after the customary empty “How are you? Great!”)
    People don’t seem to have the patience to invest time to slowly improve things, unless it involves some kind of monetary investment. Americans are also very punctual, because of course time is money. So many of them could do with stopping to smell the roses, and arriving late because they took their time.
    This rush to the finish line, to have your book published, or to have a million dollars in your bank account or to get that promotion, and to have that consume your life is something I find really sad.

    Thinking America is the best…

    Finally, one thing I find annoying is the warped view of America’s situation in the world. I also keep hearing about America being the land of the free – it certainly was… 200 years ago. Most of western Europe is as free or more free, with opportunities for people at all levels. America is indeed a better place with a higher standard of living than most of the world, but free speech and tolerance for all is the norm in the western world as a rule, not just in America.

    There is no best country. But those who go on about how America is number one, tend to be those who have never travelled or lightly travelled.

    Conclusion

    Despite all the false positivity, I find Americans to be generally the most stressed out and unhappiest people on the planet. Despite all the resources, and all the money they have, they are sadder than people I know who can barely make ends in other countries, but still know how to live in the moment.

    Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against America or Americans before anyone concludes that this post is Anti-American propaganda. This is just my opinion based on my experience and if you are an American and live your life outside the US, guess we have something in common, then.

    And please, jokes aside... At the least you can appreciate the fact that I put quite a bit of thinking into this post, so please be considerable.

    Comment


    • #3
      All your reflections are interesting However if you from Kiev How can you call yourself Russian in an Ukrainian board?
      The world it is not all American nor everyone here like me were born in America and by the way America is a hijacked term or even United States .

      Comment


      • #4
        By all means its fun to compare counties, but comparisons should be fair. I'm always pro-Ukraine, but life is not perfect anywhere.

        People’s sensitivity in America Cultural difference. In my book it beats being told "hey, you're fat" or "wow, those pants look terrible" which is said in other countries. With that said, I like countries where people care about how they look. And with that said a good portion of people in America don't care.

        Everything is ‘AWESOME’ Cultural difference. If you're having a bad day, why ruin somebody else's? If someone asks how are you doing? in the U.S. you may hear "awesome" as you say, in other countries you'll here "ohh my back hurts, i fell a week ago and I have this big scar, now now it takes me twice as long to walk. My neighbor is suing me, I don't know how I can pay the bills, I have to go get my teeth fixed, etc."

        SMILES... SMILES mean NOTHING. Yes, smiles are fake. Cultural difference again. Look at pictures from some other countries. Happy occasions, nobody is smiling. Why look down your whole life?

        The concept of tipping… Yes, tipping stinks, but customer service is generally good.

        False prices on EVERYTHING Yes, thats one approach of looking at things. The other approach would be transparency. Here is how much your taxes are, you don't like it, complain to the government. But your judgment is valid and I would agree that an all in price would make a lot of things easier.

        "wasteful consumerism" Yes

        Idiotic American stereotypes of other nations To be fair, Russia earned Vodka association by it's own merit, nobody assigned it. I will agree education could be improved and that often depends on which school you go to.

        ID checks and stupid drinking laws. Beats seeing kids walking down the street with a bottle of beer.

        Religious Americans This is not something you should judge. First of all, there are many denominations of churches in the U.S. Secondly, maybe if you grew up in the Soviet Union God wasn't mentioned as much but times have changed in all former Soviet nations as far as I'm aware. There is no religion taught in schools, so I'm not sure where you get that from, but I do think there should be.

        A country designed for cars, not humans Fair argument. But the reason why it's like that in former Soviet states is because nobody could afford cars.

        Always in a hurry Fair argument.

        Thinking America is the best… I think this happens in all large countries.



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        • #5
          Originally posted by ukieoz View Post
          All your reflections are interesting However if you from Kiev How can you call yourself Russian in an Ukrainian board?
          The world it is not all American nor everyone here like me were born in America and by the way America is a hijacked term or even United States .
          I never said I was from Kiev.... I said I was from one of the Soviet countries which I prefer not to mention in here.

          Comment


          • #6
            @stepanstas

            Cultural difference. In my book it beats being told "hey, you're fat" or "wow, those pants look terrible" which is said in other countries. With that said, I like countries where people care about how they look. And with that said a good portion of people in America don't care.
            And you just proved my point about people's sensitivity in US. I think American folks should care, at least a little bit as far as their apperance goes. I mean, it doesn't take too long to put something nice on. Nobody in Europe would come to class in their pajamas and messed up hair, besides America. Those people who do that not only disrespect themselves, but also people around them. Could it be european mentality since I talk this way? Probably, but either way that's not why I made my post here.

            Cultural difference. If you're having a bad day, why ruin somebody else's? If someone asks how are you doing? in the U.S. you may hear "awesome" as you say, in other countries you'll here "ohh my back hurts, i fell a week ago and I have this big scar, now now it takes me twice as long to walk. My neighbor is suing me, I don't know how I can pay the bills, I have to go get my teeth fixed, etc."
            Well, why not and share? What's wrong with that? I will answer that for you - because nobody got time to listen to this. People share things that are far from just "AWESOME" on facebook and twitter and apparetnly everyone finds time to "like" and comment no matter what you post. Again, this is not why I'm here.

            Yes, smiles are fake. Cultural difference again. Look at pictures from some other countries. Happy occasions, nobody is smiling. Why look down your whole life?
            Could be cultural differnce but I am just stating facts, that's all and you are agreeing with me that they are in fact fake. What kills me is that everyone knows that but countinue being fake afterall.

            Yes, tipping stinks, but customer service is generally good.
            Good customer service? LOL ok... But in all seriousness, not in my experinece have I ever had good customer service. That's why I quit going. Asking me if everything is OK every 3 minutes is not customer service - it's just another way of pretending to care.

            Beats seeing kids walking down the street with a bottle of beer.
            Everyone has choices. They choose to drink - I choose to work out at the gym. We're all responsible as far as our decisions go. For 15 days being in Kiev, I saw only a handful of times someone drinking on the street. That didn't bother me either.

            This is not something you should judge. First of all, there are many denominations of churches in the U.S. Secondly, maybe if you grew up in the Soviet Union God wasn't mentioned as much but times have changed in all former Soviet nations as far as I'm aware. There is no religion taught in schools, so I'm not sure where you get that from, but I do think there should be.
            Not really judging. When I was new here, I've had some young men dressed in white shirts with black ties coming to my apartment at least once a week asking me whether if I believe that I will go to heaven or not. At first, I was trying to argue because I do believe that it is not up me where I'm gonna go after the death. They tell me that I GET TO DECIDE THIS. I am an Orthodox Christian and I'm sorry but I had to kick those guys out of my door. Once again, throughtout my experience here in US, I have a lot to tell, but again, this is not why I am here.

            Fair argument. But the reason why it's like that in former Soviet states is because nobody could afford cars.
            True this but look at what's happening now. In Kiev, I saw cars I've never seen in my life before, not even here in the states. On the other hand, if I lived in Kiev, I wouldn't get one because it's simply not needed. I'd rather use my legs as much as I can besides just pushing the gas pedal.



            I appreciate your input; however, I am still confused as my question didn't really get answered.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Arkanoid View Post
              I appreciate your input; however, I am still confused as my question didn't really get answered.
              I think there are benefits and setbacks to both cultures. In a way, yes, people don't have time, in another way people don't care. But perhaps it's just more up front here. Just because someone is truly telling you about their problems, doesn't mean you're instead. I think in the U.S. everyone knows that everyone has their own fair share of problems. Your problems are no more special. I'm in somewhat a similar boat as you, although I came to the U.S. much younger, and perhaps with that you can call me somewhat Americanized, but I find it to be normal at this point. At work and when I see people I often ask "How are you doing?" And 90% of the time everything is good. The truth is, I don't want to listen to them for 5 minutes because it's not going to change anything. If they need my help with some life problem they'll come to me, otherwise we'll just talk senselessly. And that person will be reminded of their problem and now I would be concerned about it. I'll admit, it's different. I don't know which is better.

              About religion comment. I'm Catholic and there are a huge amount of Catholics. There are plenty of Orthodox. So again, generalizing here isn't great. But I know the type of Churches you're referring to. I'm not against them so long as I can practice my religion freely.

              As to your question, sorry I missed it. It was buried in there.

              I, personally, think I have trouble finding a job there. With that in mind, I think some people are open to a big move like this and others are not. I'm not the best person to ask this because I have Ukrainian roots and born there as opposed to a person who would migrate for the first time. If I were to made a major move like that, I'd rather move to Ukraine then say Germany, because I'd be too close to Ukraine to bother starting over from scratch. I think the occupation is a big consideration as well as getting used to other standards. For example, it's not acceptable here for a train or bus to be late, in many other countries it's normal.



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              • #8
                Strange enough but I've heard the opposite as far as finding an employer. The only thing they don't wanna do is provide the support for working visa. I hear people say that it's a lot easier to find any well paid job for someone who has an American education and who can fluently speak the English language. As far as job security goes - yes, I know today you have a job but tomorrow you never know, I guess that's one of the things I like about America. Don't get me wrong - there are plenty of things I like about America but those that I've listed above got me to the point to reconsider where I'd like to spend the rest of my life.

                As far as adaptation goes, I don't think I'd have a problem with that. It's in my blood ))

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Arkanoid View Post
                  As far as adaptation goes, I don't think I'd have a problem with that. It's in my blood ))
                  I think my family, as all migrant families worldwide, took a big risk coming to America. It's a huge move and you never know if you'll come back. If you were to move back to wherever, would you leave the rest of your family behind?



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                  • #10
                    My family also took the risk by coming here and it took us a very long time to get established; however, as I said in my original post, I don't feel happy living in America - so it is time for a change. It is just one of those things that I either do now or never. The rest of my family seem to get used to things here, so they will stay. I am not gonna be burning bridges though and will be keeping my American citizneship though, I had to go through lots of things to get it, so I won't be giving that up. You know, if it works out - great, if not I can always come back. Of course, I have friends there who can help, so that's good.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Arkanoid View Post
                      My family also took the risk by coming here and it took us a very long time to get established; however, as I said in my original post, I don't feel happy living in America - so it is time for a change. It is just one of those things that I either do now or never. The rest of my family seem to get used to things here, so they will stay. I am not gonna be burning bridges though and will be keeping my American citizneship though, I had to go through lots of things to get it, so I won't be giving that up. You know, if it works out - great, if not I can always come back. Of course, I have friends there who can help, so that's good.
                      Great, so the decision is made. It's funny, I got my haircut from a Russian lady last time and she started telling me how great Moscow is now and I should move there and everything is great there. I told her pretty much the same thing, if I was to move that far, it's not going to be Russia.

                      Another question for you. I think keeping your U.S. citizenship would be logical. Did you also keep citizenship of wherever you're from? Would you apply to be a permanent resident?



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                      • #12
                        I can't stand people that brag about Russia and how everything's great there and especially when they tell other people to move there when they are living in the states themselves. I always ask those people - what are they doing here then? They always have difficulties finding an answer to my question.

                        Not everything is set in stone just yet because I need to wait and see what happens with EU deal. I will be giving up my other citizenship, something I should have done long time ago but I guess I just didn't get around it. And yes, PR is the way to go, because I don't feel like going back and forward every 90 days, although, again, this may change depending on the EU decision.

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                        • #13
                          BUMP...

                          Looking forward to more comments please! Once again, the point of this thread isn't about America and its issues. Let me make it clear, I want to move to Ukraine, to Kiev in particular. So far, I only know one American person who lives there for 20 years now and whom I've met in person. His name is Jim Davis if any of you know this person. I was able to find some information from him, but I need some more.

                          My questions are: how difficult will it be finding a job for someone with an American education and with the ability to speak 3 languages? What salary should I expect in the IT field? I am aware about the cost of living though. Just anything someone can share will def. help. Thanks in advance.

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                          • #14
                            Briefly:
                            1) If you are aged 26 and know for sure you are unhappy in the US and you do want to try it in Ukraine - do it (imho).
                            2) Fluent English is a huge plus. At least you can always earn money for living just teaching English. If besided English you are also an IT specialist - you will be just fine. Although take into account that almost every IT guy dreams about work for a foreign IT company. Ukraine is one of leaders in IT outsourcing.
                            3) The cost of living is a rather strange topic. An avarage salary in Ukraine is UAH 5000. State clerks have even less - UAH 2k to UAH 3k. I personaly do not understant how they can survive, although I lived on these money too when I graduated. Now I consider a comfortable limit somewhere aroung USD 2000 per month. If you are a good IT specialist you can get USD 2000 and more in Kiev.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pitter Pen View Post
                              Briefly:
                              1) If you are aged 26 and know for sure you are unhappy in the US and you do want to try it in Ukraine - do it (imho).
                              2) Fluent English is a huge plus. At least you can always earn money for living just teaching English. If besided English you are also an IT specialist - you will be just fine. Although take into account that almost every IT guy dreams about work for a foreign IT company. Ukraine is one of leaders in IT outsourcing.
                              3) The cost of living is a rather strange topic. An avarage salary in Ukraine is UAH 5000. State clerks have even less - UAH 2k to UAH 3k. I personaly do not understant how they can survive, although I lived on these money too when I graduated. Now I consider a comfortable limit somewhere aroung USD 2000 per month. If you are a good IT specialist you can get USD 2000 and more in Kiev.
                              Thanks. I somehow too thought that I should not have a problem finding a job. I am totally fine with not making much right from the start. Right now I am researching some legal advice in regards of legally living in the country. I was hoping to become a permanent resident but later I realized I was too naive about that idea and it is not as easy as I thought... To become a permanent resident right away, one needs to invest at least $100,000 in Ukraine's economy or to have an occupation of a scientist/professor. None of this applies to me, so the only option for me is to be a temporary legal resident and apply for work authorization (long, complicated process). However, when you are a permanent resident, you don't have to apply for work authorization.

                              Besides, I decided to save up and just buy an apartment within first couple of months instead of long term renting. I've read countless scary stories (most shocking one) with banks so it would make sense to just save up and pay it off in order to skip anything unpredictable that may happen when it comes to loans. I also learned how banking system works in Ukraine and in my opinion it is not even close to the one here in US.

                              You know, I think I will be just fine with $2000 per month. I understood if you have an apartment that is paid off - this is like the main thing in Ukraine, at least you don't have to worry about paying for that.

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