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  • Crimea

    Explaining the current situation:




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  • #2
    Stepanstas,

    Very interesting analysis of the situation. What do you think of the original push by Crimea to separate from Ukraine once the USSR fell? Should that be considered now in this situation? On one hand it is aligned by the constitution as Ukrainian, but on the other if it has always identified as majority Russian, is it worth creating a another large divide in the country.

    Just some thoughts that I had when reading and watching videos on the subject. I know there are many factors to consider and this is but one.

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    • #3
      Putin staged the whole takeover . He sent in his favorite motorcycle gang, Night Wolves, to remove duly elected Crimean PM and replace w/their own, which they did.

      Ukraine: Russia Ups the Ante in Crimea | TIME.com

      æ, !

      Hannia - Hania - Mighthelp

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      • #4
        Hannia,

        For some reason I can't read that article. I have not heard that the Crimean PM was disposed. In fact the opposite, that they have requested Russian troops. To me if they desire to be aligned with Russia, then maybe they should be. Especially hearing that there was an attempt when Ukraine gained independence to separate, but they were just unsuccessful. I guess depends on the exact nature of the relationship of Crimea to Ukraine. If Crimea is truely nearly autonomous and only aligned with Ukraine, then why not grant the citizens what they want.

        I'm trying to learn more about this, but this is the impression I have at the moment.

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        • #5
          I have not heard that the Crimean PM was disposed. In fact the opposite, that they have requested Russian troops.
          The new PM is Sergey Aksyonov and he was installed by a Russian biker gang Thursday.
          --------------------------------------------------
          excerpt from article in previous post:

          Aksyonov, who became prime minister Thursday, belongs to the Russian Unity party in Crimea, which won about 4 percent of the vote in the last parliamentary election.
          In making his plea, Aksyonov noted that Ukraine’s central government does not control the situation in the region, as evidenced by the “unidentified” armed men and military equipment that have become so visible.

          The Russian Foreign Ministry said “unidentified gunmen directed from Kiev” had tried to capture the Crimean Interior Ministry headquarters. Calling the attempt a “treacherous provocation” that had resulted in casualties, Moscow said that “decisive action” had repelled the “vigilante groups.”

          =======================================

          Crimea PM Takes Control Of Army, Police And Seeks Russian Help - NBC News
          Last edited by Hannia; 1st March 2014, 18:31.

          æ, !

          Hannia - Hania - Mighthelp

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          • #6
            Well that was very interesting to look into. Seems Mohyliov was not liked in the region from the time of his appointment by Yanukovich. Reading that leads me to believe that would not have mattered if was Mohyliov or Askyonov as PM. Results would be the same. They would still seek to side with Russia.

            What Inga said is key I think... would the event stop at securing Crimea's interest or is the game plan to move across Ukraine? I am praying for the former as I believe the citizen's have a right to choose there, and because I pray that Ukraine will not fall into War. So sad right now.

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            • #7
              According to uapress info:

              dated 3/1/2014 5:46 PM UA Time

              Russian Troops Already In Zaporizhya region. Kyiv has called a meeting of the Natl Defense Council.
              *осійські війська вже в Запорізькій області - . Преса України - новини, свіжі новини, останні новини. uapress.info



              Some Right Wingers in Kyiv recruiting for Partisan Action. I have no details yet.

              æ, !

              Hannia - Hania - Mighthelp

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              • #8
                Amid More Signs of Russian Force in Crimea, Delight Mixes With Dismay
                http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/wo...-up-posts.html

                æ, !

                Hannia - Hania - Mighthelp

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                • #9
                  Farrieress, there are always people who want to break away from their government. Putin loves it when that happens. Look at what he did to Georgia. As Hannia pointed out earlier and as was also mentioned in the video, historically the land doesn't even belong to Russians as it Tatars were cleansed out. Separation is the last option on the table, in my opinion.



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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by stepanstas View Post
                    Farrieress, there are always people who want to break away from their government. Putin loves it when that happens. Look at what he did to Georgia. As Hannia pointed out earlier and as was also mentioned in the video, historically the land doesn't even belong to Russians as it Tatars were cleansed out. Separation is the last option on the table, in my opinion.
                    I don't know what should be done... Today I've been very torn on this whole situation.

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                    • #11
                      The Biggest Victims of Today's Events: The Crimean Tatars

                      æ, !

                      Hannia - Hania - Mighthelp

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                      • #12
                        Something any true Ukrainian politician would NEVER say

                        Originally posted by stepanstas View Post
                        Farrieress, there are always people who want to break away from their government. Putin loves it when that happens. Look at what he did to Georgia. As Hannia pointed out earlier and as was also mentioned in the video, historically the land doesn't even belong to Russians as it Tatars were cleansed out. Separation is the last option on the table, in my opinion.
                        Hi Stepanstas, I think your reference to Georgia A.D. 2008 (South Osetia in fact) was so much appropriate. Let me say something you probably would not agree with. I have a comfortable position this time to look from afar to the problem of Crimea. The most of politicians in my country back up Ukrainian indepence and integrity of Ukrainian territory. I think that if Ukraine is going to keep pursuing its true indepence course from Russia, it MUST pay a price for it. It is better for Ukraine to be a smaller country but more Ukrainian. Crimea within Ukrainian border will always be a headache and it will bring more loss that gains. Historically, Crimea maybe claimed a Tartar land but in present reality, the best option for Crimea would be to become a quasi independent state. I have no doubt that such state would lean to Russia. Ukraine without over a million of Crimean Russians means a thousand of worries less. I can not imagine open Ukrainian-Russian conflict about Crimea. Ukraine cannot afford it, Ukraine cannot win it and even if it miracuously succeded, the victory would be a Pyrrhic one. Ukraine should deplore over the Russian action, should present itself as a victim but any effective military counter-action is bound to failure in all possible terms.

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                        • #13
                          Ukraine cannot afford it, Ukraine cannot win it and even if it miracuously succeded, the victory would be a Pyrrhic one.

                          Z. I would think that you would not be unhappy if you were wrong.
                          ==================================================
                          ==================================================
                          Symbolically billing themselves as the "G7", the world leaders said in a statement that Russia's actions
                          were incompatible with the Group of Eight nations, which Moscow joined in 1997, and said they would
                          not take part in preparatory talks for June's G8 summit in Sochi, Russia.

                          The statement, signed by the leaders of Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United States
                          and the presidents of the European Council and European Commission, was released by the White House.

                          The leaders condemned "the Russian Federation's clear violation of the sovereignty and territorial integrity
                          of Ukraine".

                          The G7 finance ministers promised "strong financial backing" for Ukraine.
                          ============================================================

                          G7 leaders condemn Russian 'violation', Ukraine mobilises army - Yahoo News

                          Last edited by Hannia; 3rd March 2014, 07:14.

                          æ, !

                          Hannia - Hania - Mighthelp

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Zbyszek View Post
                            Hi Stepanstas, I think your reference to Georgia A.D. 2008 (South Osetia in fact) was so much appropriate. Let me say something you probably would not agree with. I have a comfortable position this time to look from afar to the problem of Crimea. The most of politicians in my country back up Ukrainian indepence and integrity of Ukrainian territory. I think that if Ukraine is going to keep pursuing its true indepence course from Russia, it MUST pay a price for it. It is better for Ukraine to be a smaller country but more Ukrainian. Crimea within Ukrainian border will always be a headache and it will bring more loss that gains. Historically, Crimea maybe claimed a Tartar land but in present reality, the best option for Crimea would be to become a quasi independent state. I have no doubt that such state would lean to Russia. Ukraine without over a million of Crimean Russians means a thousand of worries less. I can not imagine open Ukrainian-Russian conflict about Crimea. Ukraine cannot afford it, Ukraine cannot win it and even if it miracuously succeded, the victory would be a Pyrrhic one. Ukraine should deplore over the Russian action, should present itself as a victim but any effective military counter-action is bound to failure in all possible terms.
                            Probably what the Ukrainian government is thinking now , problem is how do they sell it to the people ?.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Zbyszek View Post
                              Hi Stepanstas, I think your reference to Georgia A.D. 2008 (South Osetia in fact) was so much appropriate. Let me say something you probably would not agree with. I have a comfortable position this time to look from afar to the problem of Crimea. The most of politicians in my country back up Ukrainian indepence and integrity of Ukrainian territory. I think that if Ukraine is going to keep pursuing its true indepence course from Russia, it MUST pay a price for it. It is better for Ukraine to be a smaller country but more Ukrainian. Crimea within Ukrainian border will always be a headache and it will bring more loss that gains. Historically, Crimea maybe claimed a Tartar land but in present reality, the best option for Crimea would be to become a quasi independent state. I have no doubt that such state would lean to Russia. Ukraine without over a million of Crimean Russians means a thousand of worries less. I can not imagine open Ukrainian-Russian conflict about Crimea. Ukraine cannot afford it, Ukraine cannot win it and even if it miracuously succeded, the victory would be a Pyrrhic one. Ukraine should deplore over the Russian action, should present itself as a victim but any effective military counter-action is bound to failure in all possible terms.
                              Yes, Zbyszek, of course I disagree but your view is becoming more and more popular. But what good would happen by giving Crimea away? You would have the Russia's Naval Fleet in your backdoor. Not to mention the fact that it pretty much eliminates Ukraine's Navy. With all the headaches that Crimea brings, it is some of the most valuable property in Ukraine.

                              Regretfully people are now admitting that Russia will likely not leave Crimea. There is absolutely nothing the world can do.

                              There is certainly financial impact. This is costing Russia money. This is drowning the Ruble and Russian stocks. But this battle is more important for Putin than all of that. There is more that can be done. But the world is acting too slow and Merkel is leaving Obama dry. Some say sanctions and travel restrictions can lead to impact. But it's easy to talk from the sidelines. It's becoming clear, the United States, United Nations, NATO will not step in. United States can't do it alone. United Nations will be vetoed by Putin. NATO's Merkel is selling herself for Putin's oil.

                              What I said a little earlier in another post is becoming true. This is not about Crimea. Crimea is the start. Now Putin is saying Yanukovich asked him to restore order in Ukraine. Yanukovich never said anything about splitting Ukraine up. That means Russian tanks will be in every city of Ukraine restoring order until Yanukovich is back in office. At least thats how he's planning it, in my opinion.



                              See whats been posted in the past day.


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