Can we talk?

[tyssian]

Allo B.,

1. You mention the actions of the "christian community", yet you mention individuals. Where were these actions justified in the Christian faith by the "community" or any other faith for that matter. (majority or well- established faiths)

2.If SCIENCE backs up evolution sooooo much then why is it still a theory and not a law. You say that all or a great portion of the evidence supports evolution. I say that you are wrong and you need to display this evidence.

3. I said evidence not your opinions. Evidence is required to support your so called FACTS.

4.How do you HIJACK a democratic government. The officials in our gov. were elected just the same as your moral disgrace known as Clinton. Of course you probably support him on his actions but this is not the point.

5.Again I ask for PROOF of the coupling of Mary with a Roman soldier. You like this speculative idea and you throw it around alot but I would like to see your support for it. You know, the kind of proof that I can go to a library and look up, not the crap that anyone in the world can place on the internet. Oh, by the way, the "virgin birth" is possible because "with God all things are possible". I don't care whether it is possible in your mind.

6.I find it hard to believe that archeologists have dug up the WHOLE Sinai Peninsula looking for Jewish artifacts with Egypts kind permission of course. Furthermore the Jews of this time were Nomadic, only setting camp for relativly short periods of time.

7.How do the scientists know that this radiation in space is the remnants of "the big bang". I mean really explain this. I find this hard to accept when they can't even PROVE that there are any other planets outside of our Solar System. I'm not up on this little tid-bit of info. so help me out, OK.

Can you address these points, each of them, so I can enlighten myself with your fact based responses.


Tyssian

[B_Ungaro]

Brother Tyssian,

I appreciate your very CIVIL answers and additional questions. I hope that I can live up to your expectations.

1. Allow me to answer your points 1 and 4 together please.
Individual actions often reflect the attitudes of the community. The constant battle over prayer is a good example. You folks can pray anytime, anywhere to any GOD. Unfortunately it is not enough for you. You want to use the Public Address System in the Scxhools and at Football games.
You not only want to pray but you also want to indoctrinate
all the INFIDELS. This to me is Psychological Terrorism. This kind of attitude leads to acts of Physical Terror by individuals. Same anology can be applied to Muslims, Christians or any other Faiths. On the subject of HIJACKING our government, I would like to refer to Florida. I would also like to refer to our foreign policy vs the the Palestinians. The events of 9/11/01 were ignited by President Bush removing the USA from the negotiating table to placate the Jesus Merchants who elected him. Our policy towards the Arabs is dictated by the Jesus Merchants. How many more innocent Americans do you want to sacrifice on the ALTAR of ISRAEL?

2. I would like to answer questions 2 and 3 together also.
Evolution is an incomplete theory with a large degree of
probability. Science is gaining on this theory, every day.
So far we know the the earliest form of life on earth were not Adam and Eve or other human like beings, but very simple
primitive slime like life forms. From these things, over thousands of years, evolved a more complex life form, which further evolved and evolved, until you and i are having this exchange. We are further evolving. This is evidenced by
new science and higher and higher levels of human performance in all areas. Science has not complete knowledge about the total evolutionary process, but it has
a bunch. Further, scince has eliminated all other possibilities, including the BELIEF of CREATION. Creation is not even a theory, it is strickly a belief, contradicted by the BIBLE.

3. Maria was impregnated by a roman soldier according to the Talmud and various Jewish Scholars. This is the reason why they do not recognize Jesus as their savior. The Talmud was re-written in 1554 by the order of the POPE. All negative references to the Jeusu Story were removed from the Talmud and all other Publications. A few of the un-doctored versions of the Talmud must have survived because
several people make reference to it in their writings. One of them is Thomas Paine, one of our founding fathers. He openly sides with the Jewish version of the parentage issue.
He also mentions that Joeseph was highly pissed when he found out that Mary was knocked up. (Book of Matthew) He contemplated doing away with Maria, until the ANGELS convinced him that it was the Holy Spirit. Sure thing.

4. I used the Sinai example because it lends itself to my humor about Jewelry Stores. The fact is that NOTHING in the BIBLE is supported by acheolgical evidence. We are speaking of the main stories. I do not want to bore you with example after example. Why don't you give me an example where there is some evidenceto validate any story in the Bible?

5. Big Bang and Radiation from it is easy to prove. The Expanding Universe Science, that you folks hate is the proof. This expansion was created by the Big Bang. The RED SHIFT is concrete evidence of this. NASA is taking pictures of this, even as we correspond. Soon the pictures will be there for everybody to see. You are going to have to deal with it. Denial will not be an intelligent option.

I hope that I answered all your concerns. Good Luck to you.

Bill

[tyssian]

[quote]Originally posted by B_Ungaro
Allo B.,

1.In reference to your first point I will say this: For you or anyone to assume that the actions of an individual is a reflection of the community is just plain, oh how should I say, retarded (here is my old civility). So if I meet a foreigner, let's say that he is from Japan, and he cheats me and assaults me then I guess that this, according to you, would mean that all or the bulk of Japanese are militant cheats. Hmmmm, not a good theory from where I am standing but then I am a Christian terrorist. Also I would determine, using this rationale, that all Muslims should be terrorists. Not true no matter how much you sputter, rant and rave. As far as Florida is concerned it would appear to me and any intelligent person that it was Gore who attempted to HIJACK the voting process by not accepting the results. He demanded a recount several times and the results were the same. A big crybaby who cannot accept defeat with any dignity. Alrighty, on to item numero two.

2.Let's talk about dating. Henry Faul said, in "Ages of Rocks, Planets and Stars" (New York: McGraw-Hill Book Co., Inc., 1966), p.61, "Uranium and lead both migrate (in shales) in geologic time, and detailed analyses have shown that useful ages cannot be obtained with them. Similar difficulties prevail in attempts to date pitchblende veins. Here again much chemical activity is known to take place and widely diverging ages can be measured on samples from the same spot." C.S. Noble and J.J. Naughton said, in "Deep-Ocean Basalts: Inert Gas Content and Uncertainties in Age Dating," 'Science', Vol. 162 (October 11, 1968), p.265, " The radiogenic argon and helium contents of three basalts erupted into deep ocean from an active volcano (Kilauea) have been measured. Ages calculated from these measurements increase with sample depth up to 22 million years for lava deduced to be recent. Caution is urged in applying dates from deep-ocean basalts in studies on ocean-floor spreading." Henry M. Morris Ph.D said, in "Scientific Creationism" (Master Books, 1985), "The radiocarbon dating method seems very useful and won for its inventor, Willard Libby, a Nobel prize. It has been checked with fair accuracy against known historical dates back to about 3000 years ago, although with considerable scatter and uncertainty.
Despite its high popularity, it involves a number of doubtful assumptions, some of which are sufficiently serious to make its results for all ages exceeding about 2000 to 3000 years, in serious need of revision. A few of theseare as follows:

1.Many living systems are not in equilibrium for C-14 exchange.

2.The radiocarbon decay rate may nothave been constant.

3.The amount of natural carbon may have varied in the past.

4.The radiocarbon ratio may not have reached a steady state."

Dr. Morris says further that "Evidence now exists that even the sun must be quite young, obtained both from direct measurement of its diameter and indirectly through the now well-documented absence of the expected flux of solar neutrinos that should have been generated in its interior."
Your statement concerning an ancient slime is, in light of the statements by these credible sources, moot. As far as humans evolving I would like you to give me a physiological example of our change to a higher form of species. I do not mean that we are growing taller or whatever you said about some men in Africa. I mean an example that we are changing to a different FORM. Prove this with any other animal as well. I am not talking about mutations, because mutations are harmful and not a step in the right direction, or a new breed of an already existing species. I mean a change towards a completely new species. Please display your information about science catching up with evolution and make it relevant. Say it so that it is obvious in its support for evolution not abstract or indirect.
Since you mentioned archeology as if it supports evolution completey, I ask you to account for the lack of intermediary species in the fossil records. You know, half bear and half horse. On to numero three.



3.Your historical writers don't agree with my historical writers so your writers must be correct. I mean, heck, they were probably present in the sack with the soldier and Mary. This looks to me like a story used in an attempt to deter Jewish conversions to Christianity because there were alot of converts. I don't care what the Roman Catholic Church or the Pope did or are doing because I am only associated with them by the name Christian not in belief or practice. Joseph being angry is moot because the Bible already states that he was ready to dissolve their engagement. On to numero four.



4.Harlan quotes Strabo of the first century B.C., Josephus his successor (whose brother wrote the letter saying that Jesus was a sorceror), and Tacitus of about A.D. 100. All testify to severe odors, asphalt seepages, and a general burned complexion of the area now called the southern end of the Dead Sea. The area, identified by Harlan as the "Valley of Siddim" (Gen. 14:8),was not under water at that time. Writes Tacitus, "Not far from the lake (Dead Sea) is a plain which, according to report, was once fertile and the site of great cities, but which was later devastated by lightning; and it is said that traces of this disaster still exist there; and that the very ground looks burnt and has lost its fertility; bk. 5, chap. 7 of his "Histories".
Concerning the pool of Gibeon in IISam. 2:12-32. A pit identified with this pool has been excavated.It was dug to a depth of thirty-five feet in the rock with a descending stairway. And you said that there wasn't ANY archeological evidence to support the Bible. I can give you more but not much as there is a lack of Biblical archeologists with permission to dig up the Bible lands. So i'll admit that archeological evidence is scarce but secular archeology has supported the Bible in things such as kings mentioned, prices and customs. We have built whole species and civilizations on less evidence than the Bible has in its support. I'm sure you probably buy into these historical accounts even with the minute evidence supporting them just because it has nothing to do with a religion. On to numero five.



5.How does this PROVE the Big Bang THEORY. It is something going on in outer-space. You still have to present proof not just that it looks like what the big bang should look like. You still cannot prove that it was the big bang. You see if it PROVED!!! the big bang then the big bang would not be a theory and until its status changes shut up and quit saying that it PROVES something.


I don't need luck.

Tyssian

[ricknorth]

[quote]Originally posted by tyssian

Originally posted by B_Ungaro
Allo B.,

1.In reference to your first point I will say this: For you or anyone to assume that the actions of an individual is a reflection of the community is just plain, oh how should I say, retarded (here is my old civility). So if I meet a foreigner, let's say that he is from Japan, and he cheats me and assaults me then I guess that this, according to you, would mean that all or the bulk of Japanese are militant cheats. Hmmmm, not a good theory from where I am standing but then I am a Christian terrorist. Also I would determine, using this rationale, that all Muslims should be terrorists. Not true no matter how much you sputter, rant and rave. As far as Florida is concerned it would appear to me and any intelligent person that it was Gore who attempted to HIJACK the voting process by not accepting the results. He demanded a recount several times and the results were the same. A big crybaby who cannot accept defeat with any dignity. Alrighty, on to item numero two.

2.Let's talk about dating. Henry Faul said, in "Ages of Rocks, Planets and Stars" (New York: McGraw-Hill Book Co., Inc., 1966), p.61, "Uranium and lead both migrate (in shales) in geologic time, and detailed analyses have shown that useful ages cannot be obtained with them. Similar difficulties prevail in attempts to date pitchblende veins. Here again much chemical activity is known to take place and widely diverging ages can be measured on samples from the same spot." C.S. Noble and J.J. Naughton said, in "Deep-Ocean Basalts: Inert Gas Content and Uncertainties in Age Dating," 'Science', Vol. 162 (October 11, 1968), p.265, " The radiogenic argon and helium contents of three basalts erupted into deep ocean from an active volcano (Kilauea) have been measured. Ages calculated from these measurements increase with sample depth up to 22 million years for lava deduced to be recent. Caution is urged in applying dates from deep-ocean basalts in studies on ocean-floor spreading." Henry M. Morris Ph.D said, in "Scientific Creationism" (Master Books, 1985), "The radiocarbon dating method seems very useful and won for its inventor, Willard Libby, a Nobel prize. It has been checked with fair accuracy against known historical dates back to about 3000 years ago, although with considerable scatter and uncertainty.
Despite its high popularity, it involves a number of doubtful assumptions, some of which are sufficiently serious to make its results for all ages exceeding about 2000 to 3000 years, in serious need of revision. A few of theseare as follows:

1.Many living systems are not in equilibrium for C-14 exchange.

2.The radiocarbon decay rate may nothave been constant.

3.The amount of natural carbon may have varied in the past.

4.The radiocarbon ratio may not have reached a steady state."

Dr. Morris says further that "Evidence now exists that even the sun must be quite young, obtained both from direct measurement of its diameter and indirectly through the now well-documented absence of the expected flux of solar neutrinos that should have been generated in its interior."
Your statement concerning an ancient slime is, in light of the statements by these credible sources, moot. As far as humans evolving I would like you to give me a physiological example of our change to a higher form of species. I do not mean that we are growing taller or whatever you said about some men in Africa. I mean an example that we are changing to a different FORM. Prove this with any other animal as well. I am not talking about mutations, because mutations are harmful and not a step in the right direction, or a new breed of an already existing species. I mean a change towards a completely new species. Please display your information about science catching up with evolution and make it relevant. Say it so that it is obvious in its support for evolution not abstract or indirect.
Since you mentioned archeology as if it supports evolution completey, I ask you to account for the lack of intermediary species in the fossil records. You know, half bear and half horse. On to numero three.



3.Your historical writers don't agree with my historical writers so your writers must be correct. I mean, heck, they were probably present in the sack with the soldier and Mary. This looks to me like a story used in an attempt to deter Jewish conversions to Christianity because there were alot of converts. I don't care what the Roman Catholic Church or the Pope did or are doing because I am only associated with them by the name Christian not in belief or practice. Joseph being angry is moot because the Bible already states that he was ready to dissolve their engagement. On to numero four.



4.Harlan quotes Strabo of the first century B.C., Josephus his successor (whose brother wrote the letter saying that Jesus was a sorceror), and Tacitus of about A.D. 100. All testify to severe odors, asphalt seepages, and a general burned complexion of the area now called the southern end of the Dead Sea. The area, identified by Harlan as the "Valley of Siddim" (Gen. 14:8),was not under water at that time. Writes Tacitus, "Not far from the lake (Dead Sea) is a plain which, according to report, was once fertile and the site of great cities, but which was later devastated by lightning; and it is said that traces of this disaster still exist there; and that the very ground looks burnt and has lost its fertility; bk. 5, chap. 7 of his "Histories".
Concerning the pool of Gibeon in IISam. 2:12-32. A pit identified with this pool has been excavated.It was dug to a depth of thirty-five feet in the rock with a descending stairway. And you said that there wasn't ANY archeological evidence to support the Bible. I can give you more but not much as there is a lack of Biblical archeologists with permission to dig up the Bible lands. So i'll admit that archeological evidence is scarce but secular archeology has supported the Bible in things such as kings mentioned, prices and customs. We have built whole species and civilizations on less evidence than the Bible has in its support. I'm sure you probably buy into these historical accounts even with the minute evidence supporting them just because it has nothing to do with a religion. On to numero five.



5.How does this PROVE the Big Bang THEORY. It is something going on in outer-space. You still have to present proof not just that it looks like what the big bang should look like. You still cannot prove that it was the big bang. You see if it PROVED!!! the big bang then the big bang would not be a theory and until its status changes shut up and quit saying that it PROVES something.


I don't need luck.

Tyssian

Thanks Bill, my faith further affirmed

[ricknorth]

Bill the mealy mouth

[B_Ungaro]

Brother Tyssian,

I regret to say, but you lost your KEWL. No problem, I understand. Ole Bill is attacking your SUPERSTITIONS.

You politely overlooked a couple of points about the Christians Hijacking our Government. Particular interest is called to our forign policy regarding the Palestinian People. I asked you: How Many More Innocent Americans D you Want To Sacrifice On The Altar of Israel? Do you need to pray over the Microphone to be fulfilled? It's not freedom of Religion Issue. You want to indoctrinate the INFIDEL.
Terrorism, pure and simple.

When I make something, like if I was God, I place it in it's rightful place, where it stay in a static status. On the other hand, if I blow up something in the vacum, like the Big Bang did, parts of what I have blown up, continue to spread and expand. I know that you folks hate this, but the Universe is Expanding, even as we correspond.

If I am not mistaken, you were trying to make some references to the flood. While you did not make mention of it, I am sure that you had Noahs Ark on the back of your mind. Rest easy, it has not been found. It does not exists.
One more thing. Folklore would have us believe that the species survived because Noah had them on the Ark. Nice story. Is it not true that Noah sacrificed most of what he allegedly had aboard? Duh, something is wrong with this picture. Stil no evidence of any Biblical story.

If creation is the way we came about, where did your God come from? Duh

Bill

[tyssian]

Allo B.,


From B:
I regret to say, but you lost your KEWL. No problem, I understand. Ole Bill is attacking your SUPERSTITIONS.


From Tyssian:
Yeah, I know, I really lost my kool because you said that I did.


From B:
You politely overlooked a couple of points about the Christians Hijacking our Government.


From Tyssian:
I didn't overlook them, it was just not relevant. Contrary to your belief, Sep. 11 did not happen because of President Bush or any other Christian for that matter. It happened because of the USA's policies for the last umpteen years. This includes you unless you don't vote or voted for the loser every time. You just hate christians and thats that.


From B:
When I make something, like if I was God, I place it in it's rightful place, where it stay in a static status. On the other hand, if I blow up something in the vacum, like the Big Bang did, parts of what I have blown up, continue to spread and expand. I know that you folks hate this, but the Universe is Expanding, even as we correspond.



From Tyssian:
God does not have to leave anything in status. He destroyed the Earth did he not. When I blow something up it is usually destroyed. I dont think that I have ever blown something up and it kept expanding and creating.Im not sure about vacuums either.


From B:
If I am not mistaken, you were trying to make some references to the flood.


From Tyssian:
Wrong. Unless I misquoted a Scriptural ref. I was talking about Sodom. The valley of Siddim?


Tyssian