Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonson
On Salvation
Deborah,
Responding to your question concerning Salvation I offer this article by C. K. Bloom
SALVATION--Next to Jesus, probably no topic occupies the Christian mind more than salvation. We must do everything to be saved, assuming, of course, salvation exists. We must obtain eternal life. That's the Christian attitude. The fundamental problem in this regard, however, is that even if one were to say to a believer, "OK, I believe you; so what must I do to be saved," he still couldn't obtain a rational response. Why? Because the answer would depend upon what the Biblical verses were selected. Some scriptural passages say you are saved by works; others say you are saved by faith; others say your destiny has already been predetermined; and still others say it is decided by God's whim. He simply looks down and arbitrarily selects those He wants.
(1) Salvation by works, for example, is clearly shown in Matthew 19:16-19 [actually it should be to verse 21] where a man asked Jesus what he must do to have eternal life:
Matt. 19:16-18 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."
Clearly, according to Jesus salvation is obtained by works. Good works, good deeds, following the commandments are all that is necessary. Jesus said nothing about believing in anything. Faith or belief isn't even mentioned. Robert Ingersoll correctly stated:"(In the 19th Chapter of Matthew we find-ed.) a child of God is asking God what is necessary for him to do in order to inherit eternal life... Now, if there ever has been an opportunity given to the Almighty to furnish a man of an inquiring mind with the necessary information upon that subject, here was the opportunity... (And yet Jesus-ed) did not say to him: You must believe in me- that I am the only begotten son of the living God. He did not say: You must be born again. He did not say: You must believe in the Bible. He did not say: You must remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy... What right has the church to add conditions of salvation? "What Must We Do To Be Saved?, Ingersoll's Works Vol. 1 p 465.
Incidentally, only five of the Ten Commandments were listed and "Love thy neighbor" is not even a commandment. It's actually found in Leviticus 19:18.
Mark 10:17-19 repeats the essential message of Matthew 19:16-18, and also lists a commandment--defraud not--that doesn't exist. Again, five of the Ten Commandments were omitted. (See also: Luke 18:18-22, 10:25-28, Acts 10:35 Ezek.18:4-9, James 1:25, 27, 2:21, 25, Romans 2:13, 1 Cor. 7:19, Luke 19:8-9, John 5:28-29, Deut. 10:12, Ecclesiastes 12:13). All the above verses resemble Micah 6:8, which says:
Micah 6:8 "...what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"
All of them state one is saved by good works; none mentions anything associated with belief or faith. Good deeds alone are sufficient.
(2) Some verses contend your destiny has already been predetermined. It's fixed. Acts 13: 48
Acts 13:48 "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
and Ephesians 1:4-5:
Eph. 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his 13:8, 2 Thess. 2:13, Eph. 1:11, Matthew 24:24, 31, Proverbs 16:9, 20:24, 2 Tim. 2:10, 1 Peter 1:2, 2:8.
(3) Some passages allege God merely selects people as He sees fit. Psalm 65:4 is a good example.
Ps. 65:4 "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts." (See also: John 6:44, 65, 17:9, Acts 22:14, Romans 9:16, 18, Psalm 86:13)
(4) And of course, there are those verses which Christians quote to prove one is saved by faith. Acts 16: 30-31 is as representative as any.
Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou halt be saved, and thy house. (See also: John 14:6, 3:15-16, 18, 36, 6:28-29, 47, 11:25-26, Acts 4:12, 13:39, Romans 1:16-17, Hebrews 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-9)
All the above clearly shows that even if one were to surrender himself completely to Christian teachings, he still wouldn't know what to do. If he is saved by works, then he had better commit good deeds; if he is saved by a Godly act of merciful selection, then he can only hope to be chosen; if he is saved by faith, then he must choose the correct beliefs; and if his destiny is predetermined, he should ignore the entire matter. Why become concerned about something that is unalterable? It is interesting to note that although Paul often says saved by faith, Jesus clearly states you are saved by works. And unless "Christianity" is actually "Paulianity," Jesus' assertions take precedence.
Thomas Paine once made an astute observation with respect to Paul's salvation by faith:
"One set of preachers make salvation to consist in believing. They tell their congregations that if they believe in Christ their sins shall be forgiven. This, in the first place, is an encouragement to sin, in a similar manner as when the prodigal young fellow is told his father will pay all his debts, he runs into debt faster, and becomes the more extravagant. Daddy says he pays all, and on he goes: just so in the other case, Christ pays all, and on goes the sinner. "The Life and Works of Thomas Paine Vol 9, p. 27
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I will have to look up these verses and get back to you. In the mean time, go ahead and start new threads on each topic we brought up while discussing Paul as it's becoming so too muli-subject, we should break it up.
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31st August 2001, 12:04
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