Ungaro and Reality

[Nonson]

THE SEVEN IMPOSSIBLE TENETS

I see seven fundamental flaws in the Reality philosophy that Bill Ungaro adheres to: he sees them as so fundamental to the Reality position that if he is right in identifying them as involving doctrinal contradictions, then my entire religious belief system collapses. He argues:

I. The nature of Reality. Reality must be either real or unreal; there is no other possibility. But neither of these is possible. If Reality is real, non-dualism collapses into dualism. If it is unreal, we are driven to self-contradiction or infinite regress.

II. The incomprehensibility of Reality. Ungaro claims that Reality is neither real nor unreal but incomprehensible. All cognition is either of the real or the unreal: Ungaro's claim flies in the face of experience, and accepting it would call into question all cognition and render it unsafe.

III. The grounds of knowledge of Reality. No knowledge can establish Reality in the sense the Ungaro requires. Reality philosophy presents Reality not as a mere lack of knowledge, as something purely negative, but as an obscuring layer which covers G-d and is removed by true G-d-reality. Reality is positive nescience not mere ignorance. Ungaro argues that positive nescience is established neither by perception, nor by inference, nor by scriptural testimony. On the contrary, I argue, all cognition is of the real.

IV. The foci of Reality. Where is the Reality that gives rise to the (false) impression of the reality of the perceived world? There are two possibilities; it could be G-d's Reality or the individual soul's. Neither is possible. G-d is knowledge; Reality cannot co-exist as an attribute with a nature utterly incompatible with it. Nor can the individual soul be the focus of Reality: the existence of the individual soul is due to Reality; this would lead to a vicious circle.

V. Reality's obscuration of the nature of G-d. Ungar would have us believe that the true nature of G-d is somehow covered-over or obscured by Reality. I regard this as an absurdity: given that Reality shows that G-d is pure self-luminous consciousness, obscuration must mean either preventing the origination of this (impossible since G-d is eternal) or the destruction of it - equally absurd.

VI. The removal of Reality by G-d-Reality. Ungar claims that Reality has no beginning, but it is terminated and removed by G-d-Reality, the intuition of the reality of G-d as pure, undifferentiated consciousness. But I deny the existence of an undifferentiated G-d, arguing that whatever exists has attributes: G-d has infinite auspicious attributes. Liberation is a matter of Divine Grace: no amount of learning or wisdom will deliver us.

VII. The removal of Reality. For Ungaro, the bondage in which we dwell before the attainment of Spiritual Enlightment is caused by delusion/illusion Reality, but I say that knowledge of reality releases us. Ungaro, however, asserts that bondage is real. No kind of knowledge can remove what is real. On the contrary, knowledge discloses the real; it does not destroy it. And what exactly is the saving knowledge that delivers us from eternal bondage to Ungaro's type of thinking? If it is real then non-duality collapses into duality; if it is unreal, then we face an utter absurdity. _____________________________________________ Bill, here are some more or less paraphrased thoughts that must be answered by you if any of your attacks on my religious beliefs are to have any legs to stand on. Peace

[B_Ungaro]

Greetings Nonson,

Did I say those things? When?

On a the subject of GOD being a matter of CONCIOUSNESS, I have agreed to do some research. I will do this on my camping trip in December. Untill then, hold your horses.

Good Luck

[Nonson]

Bill, each time you post you affirm one or more of the tenets. You work at one ideational level most of the time, but ever so infrequently you go beyond it and begin functioning on a totally new level. This is good, sometimes. Sometimes,it is not so good. The point is that if we don't start working on an entirely different and higher ideational level we'll end up boring each other to death, to say nothing of the rest of the members. My purpose in bringing to light the seven impossible tents is to create a new and interesting reality for proving to you the exstence of G-d. Peace

[andrewblow]

.......and then tear this G-d down !!!....
Nonson, your ludicrous. No-one can have a rational discussion with you for the simple reason you place yourself above every other person that has ever tried to step on this board. You rail and refute every statement made by every person, notwithstanding their genuine desire to try and make relevant points of interest and thereby make this board a one-way blast of 'nonson-management'

On your own - until you learn just a tiny, tiny bit of basic human humility.

[Nonson]

Andrew, keep on shackling your dumb ass to the rails, The Nonson Express is always on time. -THE DESTROYER-

[andrewblow]

Then stay on board and sound that whistle man, the uncompleted tunnel of life ahead is just out of sight.......

(I got off some stations ago by the way and took a preferred line)

[Nonson]

Yes we do know what train you are on and what its destination is. Nearly two thousand years ago it was named the Apostate Delivery Line, and the last depot is the Luciferian Realm. -THE DESTROYER-