Atheism and Christianity debate

[V-G]

Let us both get something out in the open. This thread is not about convincing one party to go and convert to the other, it is meant to be an intelligent debate to see both sides - full of good arguments. If you say you don't want to convert me or you don't know how they are two very different statements. One says that you know how but you don't want to and another says that you don't know how. Don't try to convert me, but do provide some good arguments so this is a debate rather then a monologue on my part. If you run out of good points, please say so . I'll claim victory over you . The fact that you will continue to believe is none of my business .

[V-G]

Therefore atheism could be considered a false belief because you don't believe in anything. You choose to believe in nothing therefore it can't be true.

This is poor post at best my friend. Atheism is not a choice to believe in NOTHING. It is a choice to NOT believe in THEISM Logic gap you got there. To clarify - not believing in one thing does NOT mean believing in nothing.

EDIT:
Just to be super duper extra crispy clear - I believe in many things in life, just not God. Are we on the same page?

[bm-21Lemko]

Originally Posted by V-G

Let us both get something out in the open. This thread is not about convincing one party to go and convert to the other, it is meant to be an intelligent debate to see both sides - full of good arguments. If you say you don't want to convert me or you don't know how they are two very different statements. One says that you know how but you don't want to and another says that you don't know how. Don't try to convert me, but do provide some good arguments so this is a debate rather then a monologue on my part. If you run out of good points, please say so . I'll claim victory over you . The fact that you will continue to believe is none of my business .

Like you said it is a debate, I pointing out what you said.

you told me in a previous post i could not convert you, so why try converting you into something that isn't real.

not trying, trying to debate.

Come on now why do you want to end this. I have brought up many good points some of which you have missed, but oh well.

keep them coming. I claim victory

[bm-21Lemko]

Originally Posted by V-G

This is poor post at best my friend. Atheism is not a choice to believe in NOTHING. It is a choice to NOT believe in THEISM Logic gap you got there. To clarify - not believing in one thing does NOT mean believing in nothing.

EDIT:
Just to be super duper extra crispy clear - I believe in many things in life, just not God. Are we on the same page?

Thats your opinion. not believing in god is a belief which can be false.

[V-G]

Originally Posted by bm-21Lemko

not believing in god is a belief which can be false.

In much the same way that not believing in Santa is a belief which can be false.

[bm-21Lemko]

you are comparing santa on the same line as God. Why?

Santa is not a mono or polythiestic being in which knowledgable people believe in.

[V-G]

Originally Posted by bm-21Lemko

you are comparing santa on the same line as God.

Of course! Did you not read my lengthy post somewhere at the start of this thread?

Originally Posted by V-G

Vasyl', let me address the issue of "not having to pay" to the church. You are old enough to understand social pressures, in school there is a pressure of conformity, one is popular only if one conforms to the expectation of what is popular. There is peer pressure to do certain things you would normally not do, some of them are silly and even harmful, yet because of peer pressure we do them (or suffer the consequences of being judged and rejected). Same thing with the church, can you honestly tell me that if you went on for 10 years and never made a donation in spite of making good money by owning a business etc... that no one would judge you for it? I highly doubt it, the social/peer pressure will FORCE you to give that "donation". It is NOT voluntary. So, since you seem to agree that religion is self made by man (reading your post you said "maybe", I assume you entertain the idea and we can just move towards a simple "OK"), why should you a part of this fraud scheme?

Re: forms of atheism. Well, there is no book we follow blindly, all we are saying is that the Bible and religions of the world make no sense, they are a superstition that makes people delusional. Why not stop the delusions? Seriously, why not? You don't believe in Santa now, do you? Why do you believe in God? Both are invented by man.

Re: teacher example.

The paradox

Key Point

A situation like this is deeply paradoxical. For any thoughtful person, the questions come in a flood. Why does an all-powerful God completely ignore the prayers and allow ten people to die? Why does God save the student who denies God's existence? Why doesn't God strike the gunman dead at the scene, or help him earlier in life so as to completely derail the situation before it ever happens? How could a loving God allow such perverse, needless and useless suffering when he clearly has the power and authority to prevent it? Why would Jesus make an unambiguous promise to answer prayers in the Bible, and then renege? How can God have answered millions of other prayers all around the globe on that day, while at the same time ignoring this huge tragedy and refusing to answer any prayers there?

It is hard for us, as human beings, to know what to think because Neva Rogers' death is senseless. We have no easy way to penetrate the mysteries of the Lord.

What we do know is that these deeply paradoxical situations happen all the time, and there must be a reason for that...

------------
Let me also go back to the delusion ... I will post what I already told Michael in another thread (a copy/paste).

Let's imagine that I tell you the following story:

* There is a man who lives at the North Pole.
* He lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.
* During the year, he and the elves build toys.
* Then, on Christmas Eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.
* He puts the sack in his sleigh.
* He hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.
* He then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.
* He gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.
* He leaves toys for the children of the household.
* He climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.
* He does this all around the world in one night.
* Then he flies back to the North Pole to repeat the cycle next year.

This, of course, is the story of Santa Claus.

But let's say that I am an adult, and I am your friend, and I reveal to you that I believe that this story is true. I believe it with all my heart. And I try to talk about it with you and convert you to believe it as I do.

What would you think of me? You would think that I am delusional, and rightly so.

Why do you think that I am delusional? It is because you know that Santa is imaginary. The story is a total fairy tale. No matter how much I talk to you about Santa, you are not going to believe that Santa is real. Flying reindeer, for example, are make-believe. The dictionary defines delusion as, "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." That definition fits perfectly.

Since you are my friend, you might try to help me realize that my belief in Santa is delusional. The way that you would try to shake me from my delusion is to ask me some questions. For example, you might say to me:

* "But how can the sleigh carry enough toys for everyone in the world?" I say to you that the sleigh is magical. It has the ability to do this intrinsically.

* "How does Santa get into houses and apartments that don't have chimneys?" I say that Santa can make chimneys appear, as shown to all of us in the movie The Santa Clause.

* "How does Santa get down the chimney if there's a fire in the fireplace?" I say that Santa has a special flame-resistant suit, and it cleans itself too.

* "Why doesn't the security system detect Santa?" Santa is invisible to security systems.

* "How can Santa travel fast enough to visit every child in one night?" Santa is timeless.

* "How can Santa know whether every child has been bad or good?" Santa is omniscient.

* "Why are the toys distributed so unevenly? Why does Santa deliver more toys to rich kids, even if they are bad, than he ever gives to poor kids?" There is no way for us to understand the mysteries of Santa because we are mere mortals, but Santa has his reasons. For example, perhaps poor children would be unable to handle a flood of expensive electronic toys. How would they afford the batteries? So Santa spares them this burden.

These are all quite logical questions that you have asked. I have answered all of them for you. I am wondering why you can't see what I see, and you are wondering how I can be so insane.

Why didn't my answers satisfy you? Why do you still know that I am delusional? It is because my answers have done nothing but confirm my delusion. My answers are ridiculous. In order to answer your questions, I invented, completely out of thin air, a magical sleigh, a magical self-cleaning suit, magical chimneys, "timelessness" and magical invisibility. You don't believe my answers because you know that I am making this stuff up. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.