Atheism and Christianity debate

[V-G]

Volodya,

So if someone is dieing you would not give them hope that they might live.

If there is hope, why not? Say a doc sees a 5% chance that the patient will live, he/she should indeed go ahead and tell the truth - there is hope but not much.

Volodya if you were diagnosed with a rare disease would you not want hope to live on, even if it was a superstition.

I would like hope, I like to live and don't want to die. The question, however is, are you really providing hope by talking all that voodoo religion stuff? Please read my post from earlier again, what is the difference between a guy selling you a "lucky" horse shoe and a religious bloke selling you the bible? All those donations that people make to the Church are payment for that sales pitch and "hope". I honestly do not know what is more cruel, telling someone "Just pray and you will live" or telling them "You are dying". Lying to a person is worse, in my opinion. You and I both know that the prayer just doesn't work! Why lie? You answer me that, Vasyl', please.

What about near death experiences, do you disregard them?

Clearly when you are almost dead and then revived back to life by paramedics there was something seriously wrong with you. Our brain is just a bunch of chemical reactions, as soon as the chemistry is a bit off you can bet your behind you will "see" things. Similar story with drugs, when one is high ... you get the picture (hopefully not from personal experience).

If religion is just a superstition why does it continue to exist?

People continue doing all kinds of silly things... why do people still eat McDonald's even though we all know that food is just poison for your body...

Why have for centuries people believed in it?

Are you telling me that the only reason why you believe in God is that people have done it for centuries? That is a rather weak argument.

Almost every society has developed a religion, can you explain why they have not given up?

Aha! Finally we are on the same page with a question. This is an excellent question and let me turn it around to you. Instead of asking why they have not given up, why don't you tell me why do we have so many religions? Why do we have so many interpretations of God's word? Could it be because he doesn't exist so every nation makes crap up as they go? Every time someone asks a good question they find a way to alter their religion to battle that question. The whole "it is a test" argument comes to mind .

I'm sorry but no matter what you say I will believe in this superstitution you call religion.

Don't be sorry. I understand you very well, many of my good friends are religious and as long as they tolerate my position and my views are continue to be friends because, even though I believe they are delusional with respect to this whole God thing, I do not hold it against them. But I hope you keep an open mind and actually think about my posts, if for no better reason it will either change your views or strengthen your faith, right?

More to come...

[V-G]

Originally Posted by bm-21Lemko

..you can't prove humbleness or virtues exist unless you believe they exist.

There is no physical evidence. If a man has never experienced humblness how does he know it exists?

Tsk tsk tsk... If you are posting this in defense of religion then you are doing yourself a disservice because I too believe that Religion was man made . Being humble means to be not arrogant or assertive, it is a man made, man defined term - just like religion. What is better is that we do not pay 10% of our salary to belong to the "humble" group.

[V-G]

How about this?

It would have to be a teacher's worst nightmare.

Imagine that you are a high school English teacher. You are standing at the front of the classroom working through the day's lesson. Perhaps you and your students are studying verb conjugation, or analyzing one of Shakespeare's plays. It is another normal day in the American education system, and you have a lot of material to cover.

Then the sound fills your classroom. Gunshots. And screaming. A gunman has entered the school and is shooting at people as he makes his way down the hallway toward your classroom.

What would you do?

If you were English teacher Neva Rogers at Red Lake high school, you would take immediate action. You would shut off the lights in the classroom. You would close and lock the classroom door. [ref] You would tell your students to crouch in a corner of the classroom to get out of harm's way. Then you would stand in the middle of the room and begin praying to God. According to student witnesses, Ms. Rogers prayed, "God be with us. God help us."

The gunman walks to Neva Rogers' classroom door and finds it locked. He shoots out the glass panel next to the door and it explodes in a shower of tiny crystalline fragments. The gunman reaches in through the hole he has created, unlocks the door and shoves it out of the way to enter the classroom. Dressed completely in black and measuring six feet tall, he is a huge, hulking apparition.

He crosses the threshold of the classroom and looks at Ms. Rogers as she prays. He is armed with a massive 12-gauge shotgun. He raises the gun with both hands so it is pointing straight at Rogers' head.

What should God do?

What do you think God should do in a situation like this? Step back for a moment and look at this from God's perspective. God is sitting on his magnificent throne in heaven. God is all-knowing, so he is certainly watching Red Lake high school as events unfold. He hears Neva Rogers' prayers, and sees the gunman pointing the shotgun at her head. Jesus has promised that God will help, and Jesus is sitting at God's right hand.

Clearly a line has been drawn. On one side of the line is pure evil -- a sixteen-year-old who is obviously insane. On the other side is a deeply devoted, 62-year-old woman of unbending faith in God. This is a showdown between good and evil if there ever was one.

Think of all of the possibilities that an all-powerful God has at his disposal. Perhaps the easiest thing would be to strike the gunman with a freak heart attack, aneurism or stroke right then and there. Hundreds of people die of heart attacks in the United States every day, so if God struck him with a heart attack it would be completely undetectable. Non-believers would chalk it up to coincidence, but God's followers would understand what really happened.

If God has a desire to be a bit more spectacular, there are other possibilities. For example, he could cause an earthquake. He could send an angel to stand between the gunman and the teacher and deflect the bullets. A meteor could crash through the ceiling, or a bolt of lightning, and strike the gunman dead. Or God could cause a police officer to burst into Ms. Rogers' classroom just at this moment and kill the gunman on the spot. There are a million things that an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God could do to answer Neva Rogers' prayers.

The gunman looks directly at Neva Rogers with his 12-gauge shotgun pointed at her skull. He pulls the trigger. Nothing happens. There is a click, but the gun does not fire. It seems like a miracle. Surely it is the hand of God.

Unfortunately, the gunman has a backup weapon and he does not even hesitate. He pulls out a pistol. He points the pistol at Ms. Rogers' head as she prays and squeezes the trigger. The pistol performs according to its specifications. He shoots Neva Rogers three times in the head and then once in the face for good measure. She dies instantly, falling into a pool of her own blood on the floor right in front of her stunned students.

According to Time magazine, what the gunman does next is remarkable. He aims his gun at one of Ms. Rogers' students in the corner and asks, "Do you believe in God?" By doing this, the gunman recreates a scene from the shootings at Columbine. At Columbine the student answered, "Yes" to this question and was shot to death. At Red Lake the student answers, "No." The gunman spares that student's life and starts shooting other students. [ref]

A total of ten people died on that day at Red Lake before the gunman took his own life.

[bm-21Lemko]

alright, alright, alright.

So, religion is a poor decision just like Mcdonalds. Am I correct?

For the sake of argument lets say this.
Religion has virtues and Morals. Does Mcdonalds have Virtues and Morals. Next time when I should pay for that big mac, I will shoot the cashier instead. NO!! I have virtues and morals, Like a humble group.

Are you telling me that the only reason why you believe in God is that people have done it for centuries? That is a rather weak argument.

Nope, I'm just saying if they are smart people why haven't they seen the way you see things.

Aha! Finally we are on the same page with a question. This is an excellent question and let me turn it around to you. Instead of asking why they have not given up, why don't you tell me why do we have so many religions? Why do we have so many interpretations of God's word? Could it be because he doesn't exist so every nation makes crap up as they go? Every time someone asks a good question they find a way to alter their religion to battle that question. The whole "it is a test" argument comes to mind .

Ok why are their different forms of atheism. Is it because it does not exist or people interpret it differently. I think it is the second one.

Tsk tsk tsk... If you are posting this in defense of religion then you are doing yourself a disservice because I too believe that Religion was man made . Being humble means to be not arrogant or assertive, it is a man made, man defined term - just like religion. What is better is that we do not pay 10% of our salary to belong to the "humble" group.

Maybe the religious service is man made. We do not have to pay anything because it is a donation. People donate because they have morals and would like those morals and virtues to continue on like you said as a humble group. Hey if you don't have to pay more power too you.
Religious service is the spread of a belief so that others may join and see the way you do. You may not, but you see something(belief system). Am i correct?

Volodya if you were going to die and you had a small chance of recovery, I would take the side of the recovery. What were your odds of being successful in the business world? Its a competition and you have to win to survive. I believe in honesty, but i also believe in tenacity. When things get tuff no matter what you don't let go, you keep going. Like the energizer bunny!!!! Remember we don't conform to the masses even when it is popular opinion. logic and reason does!!!!

OK,

the teacher situation. What if she believed in nothing. She had no hope. So instead she looks at the gunmen in shock, and her heart is pounding. I would hope that i would make it out alive even if there was no chance in the world, I would try to believe that someone would help.

In all honesty we don't know what she was feeling maybe those few seconds of praying when the gunmens shotgun jammed was all she needed to feel humble and feel at ease.

[V-G]

Vasyl', let me address the issue of "not having to pay" to the church. You are old enough to understand social pressures, in school there is a pressure of conformity, one is popular only if one conforms to the expectation of what is popular. There is peer pressure to do certain things you would normally not do, some of them are silly and even harmful, yet because of peer pressure we do them (or suffer the consequences of being judged and rejected). Same thing with the church, can you honestly tell me that if you went on for 10 years and never made a donation in spite of making good money by owning a business etc... that no one would judge you for it? I highly doubt it, the social/peer pressure will FORCE you to give that "donation". It is NOT voluntary. So, since you seem to agree that religion is self made by man (reading your post you said "maybe", I assume you entertain the idea and we can just move towards a simple "OK"), why should you a part of this fraud scheme?

Re: forms of atheism. Well, there is no book we follow blindly, all we are saying is that the Bible and religions of the world make no sense, they are a superstition that makes people delusional. Why not stop the delusions? Seriously, why not? You don't believe in Santa now, do you? Why do you believe in God? Both are invented by man.

Re: teacher example.

The paradox

Key Point

In Mark 11:24 Jesus promises Neva Rogers that, "whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." In John 14:14 Jesus promises, "if you ask anything in my name, I will do it." Yet when Neva prayed for protection from the gunman, Jesus completely ignored her. Jeff Weise shot Neva Rogers in the head four times, and she died in a pool of her own blood.

A situation like this is deeply paradoxical. For any thoughtful person, the questions come in a flood. Why does an all-powerful God completely ignore the prayers and allow ten people to die? Why does God save the student who denies God's existence? Why doesn't God strike the gunman dead at the scene, or help him earlier in life so as to completely derail the situation before it ever happens? How could a loving God allow such perverse, needless and useless suffering when he clearly has the power and authority to prevent it? Why would Jesus make an unambiguous promise to answer prayers in the Bible, and then renege? How can God have answered millions of other prayers all around the globe on that day, while at the same time ignoring this huge tragedy and refusing to answer any prayers there?

It is hard for us, as human beings, to know what to think because Neva Rogers' death is senseless. We have no easy way to penetrate the mysteries of the Lord.

What we do know is that these deeply paradoxical situations happen all the time, and there must be a reason for that...

------------
Let me also go back to the delusion ... I will post what I already told Michael in another thread (a copy/paste).

Let's imagine that I tell you the following story:

* There is a man who lives at the North Pole.
* He lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.
* During the year, he and the elves build toys.
* Then, on Christmas Eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.
* He puts the sack in his sleigh.
* He hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.
* He then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.
* He gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.
* He leaves toys for the children of the household.
* He climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.
* He does this all around the world in one night.
* Then he flies back to the North Pole to repeat the cycle next year.

This, of course, is the story of Santa Claus.

But let's say that I am an adult, and I am your friend, and I reveal to you that I believe that this story is true. I believe it with all my heart. And I try to talk about it with you and convert you to believe it as I do.

What would you think of me? You would think that I am delusional, and rightly so.

Why do you think that I am delusional? It is because you know that Santa is imaginary. The story is a total fairy tale. No matter how much I talk to you about Santa, you are not going to believe that Santa is real. Flying reindeer, for example, are make-believe. The dictionary defines delusion as, "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." That definition fits perfectly.

Since you are my friend, you might try to help me realize that my belief in Santa is delusional. The way that you would try to shake me from my delusion is to ask me some questions. For example, you might say to me:

* "But how can the sleigh carry enough toys for everyone in the world?" I say to you that the sleigh is magical. It has the ability to do this intrinsically.

* "How does Santa get into houses and apartments that don't have chimneys?" I say that Santa can make chimneys appear, as shown to all of us in the movie The Santa Clause.

* "How does Santa get down the chimney if there's a fire in the fireplace?" I say that Santa has a special flame-resistant suit, and it cleans itself too.

* "Why doesn't the security system detect Santa?" Santa is invisible to security systems.

* "How can Santa travel fast enough to visit every child in one night?" Santa is timeless.

* "How can Santa know whether every child has been bad or good?" Santa is omniscient.

* "Why are the toys distributed so unevenly? Why does Santa deliver more toys to rich kids, even if they are bad, than he ever gives to poor kids?" There is no way for us to understand the mysteries of Santa because we are mere mortals, but Santa has his reasons. For example, perhaps poor children would be unable to handle a flood of expensive electronic toys. How would they afford the batteries? So Santa spares them this burden.

These are all quite logical questions that you have asked. I have answered all of them for you. I am wondering why you can't see what I see, and you are wondering how I can be so insane.

Why didn't my answers satisfy you? Why do you still know that I am delusional? It is because my answers have done nothing but confirm my delusion. My answers are ridiculous. In order to answer your questions, I invented, completely out of thin air, a magical sleigh, a magical self-cleaning suit, magical chimneys, "timelessness" and magical invisibility. You don't believe my answers because you know that I am making this stuff up. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.

[bm-21Lemko]

Volodya,

How can it satisfy me when Aethism is a delusion or a fairytale like religion. Why cannot I see the way you do, well we choose different paths.

Re: forms of atheism. Well, there is no book we follow blindly, all we are saying is that the Bible and religions of the world make no sense, they are a superstition that makes people delusional. Why not stop the delusions? Seriously, why not? You don't believe in Santa now, do you? Why do you believe in God? Both are invented by man.

Are there not more believers than Aethiests. So, how can that be reflected upon peer pressure. Will people judge you different because you are a atheist? We both know we are not influenced by peer pressure.

A situation like this is deeply paradoxical. For any thoughtful person, the questions come in a flood. Why does an all-powerful God completely ignore the prayers and allow ten people to die? Why does God save the student who denies God's existence? Why doesn't God strike the gunman dead at the scene, or help him earlier in life so as to completely derail the situation before it ever happens? How could a loving God allow such perverse, needless and useless suffering when he clearly has the power and authority to prevent it? Why would Jesus make an unambiguous promise to answer prayers in the Bible, and then renege? How can God have answered millions of other prayers all around the globe on that day, while at the same time ignoring this huge tragedy and refusing to answer any prayers there?

You know, jesus prayed and prayed and prayed to God for another way, but guess what. He died anyways. Could not God have found another way. Of course he could of. How do you know her prayers were not answered? She asked for a safe place, and now she is in one. You see, you have to see first to become unblind.

* "But how can the sleigh carry enough toys for everyone in the world?" I say to you that the sleigh is magical. It has the ability to do this intrinsically.

* "How does Santa get into houses and apartments that don't have chimneys?" I say that Santa can make chimneys appear, as shown to all of us in the movie The Santa Clause.

* "How does Santa get down the chimney if there's a fire in the fireplace?" I say that Santa has a special flame-resistant suit, and it cleans itself too.

* "Why doesn't the security system detect Santa?" Santa is invisible to security systems.

* "How can Santa travel fast enough to visit every child in one night?" Santa is timeless.

* "How can Santa know whether every child has been bad or good?" Santa is omniscient.

* "Why are the toys distributed so unevenly? Why does Santa deliver more toys to rich kids, even if they are bad, than he ever gives to poor kids?" There is no way for us to understand the mysteries of Santa because we are mere mortals, but Santa has his reasons. For example, perhaps poor children would be unable to handle a flood of expensive electronic toys. How would they afford the batteries? So Santa spares them this burden.

If you believe it then I can not make you stop believing. Like i said before it is a test. It is a test in this little role called life. We all don't choose the same path now do we? we are not all rich and we are not all poor.

Why didn't my answers satisfy you? Why do you still know that I am delusional? It is because my answers have done nothing but confirm my delusion. My answers are ridiculous. In order to answer your questions, I invented, completely out of thin air, a magical sleigh, a magical self-cleaning suit, magical chimneys, "timelessness" and magical invisibility. You don't believe my answers because you know that I am making this stuff up. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.

Exactly my point, Is not aethism a delusion like religion?

I see no insanity, I see a different path along a really long road.

but hey, they are numerous and we can only choose one.

[V-G]

Vasyl', I like your persistance and solid attempts at turning it around on me every time I post something too challenging to confront with proper arguments. But I have to say that when called atheism a delusion you lost me... I assume we have two very different dictionaries. I defined delusion in this thread once, please go back and read again. You will quickly see why atheism is not a delusion - to be delusional I would have to believe in Santa, God or anything else that is not real, atheist do not believe (against religion). Can you see how your argument does not work?

Peer pressure is what is at work when you choose to attend your Church and eventually "feel like" giving money. Being an atheist is a form of non conformity and I am judged by religious people very often. Many of them would approach me on the street and treat me with all respect possible until it clicks in their heads "this guy is beyong hope", they realize that I am right, there is no God, but they are afraid to admit it, so they just get mad at me, judge me and eventually probably tell themselves that I am a test to their faith and that they have to be strong. I am very sorry for all of them, they are delusional. You said it, there are more believers than atheists, between the two of us it seems that you are the one who followed "peer pressure" by choosing the more popular group, so to speak. Again, your argument here just doesn't work. It seems that you understand where I am coming from but the idea that there is no God is just too new and you cant' accept it that quickly.

You mention Jesus... so he prayed and prayed for another way, but poof - still died. Doesn't it make you wonder? Maybe he wasn't a God after all (and Bible says he is God!), maybe the prayer simply does NOT work.

Was Jesus the son of God?

The centerpiece of the Christian faith is Jesus. The life, death and resurrection of Jesus are celebrated by Christians all around the world. Jesus' miracles prove to Christians that Jesus is the son of God. Jesus' death is the human sacrifice that finally appeased God.

Jesus claims in many places in the Bible, and in many different ways, that he is God. For example, in John chapter 4, verse 25 we find this:

The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when he comes, he will show us all things." Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am he."

In John Chapter 10, verse 24 we find this:

So the Jews gathered round him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness to me."

In John chapter 14, verse 8 we find this:

Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father."

And so on. It is clear that Jesus claimed to be God.

According to Jesus, his miracles prove that he is God. For example, in Matthew chapter 11 we find this:

Now when John heard in prison about the deeds of the Christ, he sent word by his disciples and said to him, "Are you he who is to come, or shall we look for another?" And Jesus answered them, "Go and tell John what you hear and see: the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them."

What we have here is a man who says that he is God, and who claims that his miracles prove that he is God. The question that any normal person would ask is simple: Is this true? Is Jesus God, or was Jesus a normal human being?

Let's say you are walking down a New York City street one day, and you notice a man walking toward you from the other direction. There are two reasons why you notice him. First, he is wearing a long white robe and leather sandals. Second, he is obviously planning to talk to you. He has made direct eye contact and is motioning for you to stop so that he can say something to you.

You try to look at the ground and walk past him, but he actually steps right into your path and you stop short. He focuses his eyes on you and says, " I am the light of the world: he who follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. I am the prince of peace. I am God. Believe in me and you shall have Eternal life...."

You are thinking that this person is a total nut case. You are fingering the cell phone in your pocket, making sure that you will be able to dial 911 if you need to. Fortunately there are a number of other people walking by, so you feel fairly safe. And there is something about the intensity of his gaze... Instead of running away, you say, "Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Let me make sure I heard you right. You are God?"

Man: "Yes. I am God. I am the son of the highest. I am the lord of our righteousness. I am the horn of salvation. I..."

You: "Whoa. Slow down. You are God?"

Man: "Yes. I am God."

You: "Can you show me an ID?"

Man: "No. I am God. I don't need an ID."

You: "Of course. OK. Can you tell me your name?

Man: "My name is Jesus2."

You: "Can you prove to me that you are God? That's a pretty stupendous claim."

Man: "Yes, certainly. Walk with me."

Jesus2 walks about half a block, and you come upon a homeless person in a wheel chair begging for change with a sign and a rattling cup. Jesus2 approaches him and says, "Good sir. May we interrupt you for a moment?"

Homeless man: Yes.

Jesus2: Have we ever met before?

Homeless man: No, I've never seen you before in my life.

Jesus2: Now good sir, how long have you been confined to this wheel chair.

Homeless man: Going on 20 years I'd say. Seems like my whole life.

Jesus2: Arise and walk. You are healed!

At this point the homeless person leaps to his feet screaming, "It's a miracle! I am cured! I am able to walk!" and runs off down the street joyously.

Now, what do you think about this? You need to make a decision here. Either this man is God and has just healed a person who has not walked for 20 years. That's option #1. Or... this man is not God, and there is some other explanation for what you just saw. For example, it might, possibly, be the case that Jesus2 is a homeless man too, and that these two homeless men might -- just might -- be working together on some sort of scam. That is option #2.

Chances are that you suspect that option #2 is the more likely of the two scenarios at work here. So you might say to Jesus2, "Wow. That was impressive. You just healed a guy who had been in a wheelchair for 20 years. But look -- I need something a little more convincing. See that skyscraper across the street? Can you pick it up and move it to the middle of Central Park?"

Jesus2: Which part of Central Park?

You: It really doesn't matter to me.

Jesus2: Well, there is a slight problem.

You: Really? What is the problem?

Jesus2: It is not my will to move the skyscraper.

You: Really? I thought you were God. Aren't you all-powerful?

Jesus2: I am God, yes. I am the bread of life. I am the blessed and only potentate. However, it is not my will to move that skyscraper.

You: Why not?

Jesus2: It simply is not. I like Central Park the way it is.

You: OK. Move it somewhere else. Move it to a vacant lot in Jersey.

Jesus2: It is not my will to do that.

You: I see. Well, have a nice day!

And you would walk away.

Prove it

Think about it. If someone were to come to you and say, "I am God!", wouldn't you want proof? Yes, you would. Of course you would. And you would not want goofy proof. You would not accept something that looks like a faith healer's show at a tent revival, and you would not accept something that looks like a magic trick. You want real, solid proof. You want any person who claims to be God to do something that is clearly impossible, like picking up a skyscraper, levitating it through the air and settling it into the middle of Central Park.

Something like that, quite obviously, would have to be the work of an all-powerful God. Levitating a skyscraper and moving it from here to there is clearly something that no human being can do, so it would be convincing. There is no way to fake it. And millions of other people would be able to verify that, yes, the skyscraper did move from its original location to a new location. If the building were hooked into water, sewer, power and phone at its new resting place, that would be perfect.

No normal person, and I mean no one, would accept anything less than rock solid proof from a person who claims to be God.

Why should it be any different with Jesus? Jesus was a man who claims to be God. If he is God, then he ought to be able to prove it in a real, inimitable way. If he cannot prove it then, quite clearly, he is not God.

A Christian would say, "But Jesus HAS proven it! Just look at all of the miracles he did in the Bible! He healed the sick! He changed water into wine! That PROVES that Jesus is the Lord!"

Does that make sense to you? Imagine that someone, today, were to come up to you and say, "I am God, and I will prove that I am God by healing the sick and turning water into wine!" What would you say? Be honest. You would not believe this person because:

... to be continued...