Atheism and Christianity debate

[V-G]

And a joke for the soul:

Selling Bibles

While checking the church storeroom, the pastor discovered several cases of new Bibles that never had been opened and distributed. So at his Sunday sermon, he asked for three volunteers from the congregation who would be willing to sell the Bibles door-to-door for $10 each to raise money for the church. Jack, Paul, and Louie all raised their hands to volunteer for the task.

The minister knew that Jack and Paul earned their living as salesmen and were likely capable of selling some Bibles. But he had serious doubts about Louie, a local farmer who always had kept to himself because he was embarrassed by his speech impediment. Poor Louie stuttered badly. But because he didn't want to discourage Louie, the minister decided to let him try anyway.

He sent the three of them away with the backseats of their cars stacked with Bibles. He asked them to meet with him and report the results of their efforts the following Sunday.

Anxious to find out how successful they were, the minister immediately asked Jack, "Well, Jack, how did you make out selling our Bibles last week?" Proudly handing the reverend an envelope, Jack replied, "Using my sales prowess, I was able to sell 20 Bibles, and here's the $200 I collected on behalf of the church."

"Fine job, Jack!" the minister said, vigorously shaking his hand. "You are indeed a fine salesman and the church is indebted to you."

Turning to Paul, he said, "And Paul, how many Bibles did you sell for the church last week?"

Paul, smiling and sticking out his chest, confidently replied, "I am a professional salesman. I sold 28 Bibles on behalf of the church, and here's the $280 I collected."

The minister responded, "That's absolutely splendid, Paul. You are truly a professional salesman and the church is also indebted to you."

Apprehensively, the minister turned to Louie and said, "And Louie, did you manage to sell any Bibles last week?" Louie silently offered the minister a large envelope. The minister opened it and counted the contents. "Louie, there's $3,200 in here! Are you suggesting that you sold 320 Bibles for the church, door-to-door, in just one week?" Louie just nodded.

"That's impossible!" both Jack and Paul said in unison. "We are professional salesmen, yet you claim to have sold 10 times as many Bibles as we could."

"Yes, this does seem unlikely," the minister agreed. "I think you'd better explain how you managed to accomplish this, Louie."

Louie shrugged. "I-I-I re-re-re-really do-do-do-don't kn-kn-kn-know f-f-f-for sh-sh-sh-sure," he stammered. "A-a-a-all I-I-I s-s-s-said wa-wa-wa-was 'W-w-w-w-would y-y-y-you l-l-l-like t-t-t-to b-b-b-buy th-th-th-this b-b-b-Bible f-f-f-for t-t-t-ten b-b-b-bucks o-o-o-or wo-wo-wo-would yo-yo-yo-you j-j-j-just l-l-l-like m-m-m-me t-t-t-to st-st-st-stand h-h-h-here and r-r-r-read it t-t-t-to y-y-y-you?'"

[StormAU]

Originally Posted by V-G

Every day I open a thread like this I wonder "How can a man that sounds as intelligent as he does (yes you Michael) can be so absolutely out of it? How can he believe in the crap he believes in? I am baffled, not just confused, I am baffled!"

Oh to hell with today, let's even talk about the dumbest stories of all - Adam and Eve crap. Did you ever think critically about it, or were you just spoon fed that junk before you even knew what a spoon was?

When you are done talking about being gay and how that is a terrible sin that people "earned" or even "chose", do read what I think about Adam and Even junk:

I know your gonna say I have bailed out but that doesn't worry me. There comes a point where the "other" person must start showing stuff (yes the other person is you Volodya), yet you don't. You cant show anyone here what you believe in, you freely admit to not having a clue yourself yet you go on about others being delusional and "out of it". Well until you can give me something to work with on you I have had enough of this topic with you because all you are doing is claiming you know better than everyone else when in actual fact you don't know much about it and you admit to not having any answers.

Now when you stop your little stories, you stop the everyone who claims to be a Christian is wrong or misled or whatever, when you have some answers to the meaning of life then please feel free to debate me and give me something counter to my beliefs. Until then either listen and stop making out we are all misled or just stop this type of discussion cause every Christian who does know what he or she is doing will eventually stop discussing this stuff with you. Just like I am about to. This is no and never has been a debate, a debate has 2 sides, I have my side, you have nothing, so I'll say it again, when you have something to debate me with then please debate me, until then just listen and learn and maybe ask questions.

The ball is actually in your court now Volodya.

[V-G]

Michael,

I know you are annoyed with me and rightfully so, I tend to push people's buttons. Feel free to ignore but let me be honest here, I hope you don't.

I assume you are smarter than I am (from many posts I've read from you), I've told you that before. It may seem arrogant on my part to be calling you delusional, but just like some people get good grades in school but aren't street smart, I feel you are simply wrong with the whole religion thing. I feel very strongly that you are wrong but it doesn't mean I will have an answer for you to replace your delusions.

Here is how I see our problem (you and I arguing rather than debating) - you are asking for an explanation from me, you want to hear "This is what happened and not what you said" and I am giving you "What you said happened could not have happened because of this and that". Both can lead to a discussion but I only offer one (because I don't know what happened). History is like that, there are books/articles written for the sole purpose to discredit a theory posed by another book/article. What is wrong with that?

Did you ever think Why is it that you get so mad about my stories? Just think about it, why do they bug you so much?

Honestly, I wish we could talk some more, but I understand where you are coming from, by questioning something this close to heart is hurtful, it must feel as if I was offending your close family. For that, I am sorry, I don't mean to offend, just trying to point out where you are wrong or learn where I am wrong. Either way, it won't be pretty because of the topic.

[StormAU]

Volodya, the only thing I am annoyed about is you are asking me to do something you yourself are either not willing to do or cannot possibly do, to me that is incredibly unfair. You know I say things as I see them. Discussing, debating or arguing religion is no different to me than discussing, debating or arguing politics or the price of eggs at the corner store. To be part of a constructive discussion you have to have something to discuss. I am sorry but to me you don't have anything to discuss, you throw stories into a thread as though they have a relevance to it and I don't see the relevance of Santa Claus to this discussion, nor do I see the relevance of some fella who "found" the book of Mormon. You may as well throw in the tooth fairy for all the good that would do.

I have had this discussion so many times in the last 40 years with different people it isn't funny and you are the first who has nothing to give back to say that you have something at least that you can offer up as a viable alternative. I can show you in a multitude of ways how "science" has stuffed up, yet all you have been able to do is pick bits and pieces of verses, take them way out of context, and then say that a person who believes in it 1, hasn't thought about it critically 2, is intelligent but "way out of it".

To put it bluntly my friend it isn't one thing or even a combination of things that you have said about me or my beliefs that makes me feel this is a no-use discussion with you, it is the simple fact you have absolutely nothing to offer in return. It seems as though you want me to stretch your thinking, but what do I get? I get things like this:

Originally Posted by V-G

Let's try to look at the Bible as though you have never seen it before.

Imagine that we are good friends. One day we are talking:

Me: Wow, you will not believe this new book I've been reading!

You: What's it about?

Me: It is a manual for living a better life. It is also a guide to creating a better society for ourselves and our children. It has changed my life!

You: That sounds like an important book. Who wrote it?

Me: The author is supposed to be the smartest person in the universe.

You: That's amazing -- if the author is the smartest person in the universe, the book must be absolutely brilliant. I can't wait to see it. Do you have a copy with you?

Me: Absolutely! I carry it with me everywhere I go! Here, have a look for yourself...

You open the book to a random page, and you find this:

Any of the people of Israel, or of the aliens who reside in Israel, who give any of their offspring to Molech shall be put to death; the people of the land shall stone them to death. I myself will set my face against them, and will cut them off from the people, because they have given of their offspring to Molech, defiling my sanctuary and profaning my holy name. And if the people of the land should ever close their eyes to them, when they give of their offspring to Molech, and do not put them to death, I myself will set my face against them and against their family, and will cut them off from among their people, them and all who follow them in prostituting themselves to Molech.

If any turn to mediums and wizards, prostituting themselves to them, I will set my face against them, and will cut them off from the people. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy; for I am the Lord your God. Keep my statutes, and observe them; I am the Lord; I sanctify you. All who curse father or mother shall be put to death; having cursed father or mother, their blood is upon them.

If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death. The man who lies with his father’s wife has uncovered his father’s nakedness; both of them shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall be put to death; they have committed perversion; their blood is upon them. If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. [Leviticus, chapter 20]

You are not quite sure what to say. You look at me for a moment.

You: I thought you said that this is written by the most intelligent person in the universe. If we are going to follow what this author says, we have to kill half the people in America. We are supposed to kill everyone who has cursed his father or mother, everyone who has committed adultery, and every homosexual.

Me: Well, that's in the old testament, you see. The book is really two books, and the "old" part of the book doesn't really apply.

You: Are you saying that the smartest person in the universe once wanted us to kill every adulterer and homosexual, but then changed his mind? That somehow makes it better? If the "old part" no longer applies, then why did you hand it to me when I asked to see the book?

Me: Well, parts of it do apply.

You: Didn't you just tell me that it doesn't apply?

Now, if you believe that we would have a conversation like this then you are sadly mistaken. My reactions would be very different, maybe that is because of who I am or the day and age that I grew up in or maybe it is because of other reasons, the point is this is a story and you do this type of thing in these threads when I have been a part of them often. Now that's fine cause its your style, having said that I would ask you to respect my style of ignoring this type of stuff.

I will tell you what that conversation would be more like if something "like" it ever had a slim chance of occurring between me and you. You would show me the book, I would read sections of it consider what is said and in what context, I would then do some research on it and come to my own conclusions about what is in it. I have done the same with books like Herodotus's "Histories" and books from people like Livy and Plutarch right through to modern books from people high up in their fields of interest. I did it with the Rig Veda (the Vedic histories) when studying the Harrapan civilisation of the Indus Valley and that was an interesting exercise.

Last thing in this post, in the thread this quote come from you call God a mythological being, for someone who has no answers for anything that's an incredibly big call to make. What I want from you is that you prove it, give me something other than a "you-me" or a Santa Claus story. Give me some science that proves God doesn't exist, give me your beliefs (yes I know you have already stated you don't have any beliefs and said it was unfair of me to call you up on them but I called you on them cause you continuously call me on mine), if you can't I would ask you to cut with the high brow crap cause its not something I will respond to.

[V-G]

I'll be brief:

1. Glad to hear religion discussion is just like cost of eggs for you. I feel free to be blunt and honest
2. You missed a class in school where they taught logic, to disprove a theory it takes one example, doesn't it? What have showed you with my stories so far (look back if you have to):

1. Bible was written by a man, not God and not even inspired by God
2. Jesus was a phony, he never was a God and never will be
3. Prayer doesn't work
4. God's plan is a contradiction in itself to your whole Religion
5. ... can't even be bothered to think back, but even this is enough to call BS on your Religion

You once again told me that you ignored my stories but should you have? Or are you just running away from them with a lame excuse that I don't offer you the explanation of how the world was created? Weak my friend, very weak After proving conclusively that you were wrong all you did was tell me "well I don't have a better theory so I'll stick this one anyways". Like I said, weak.

So done is done. If you choose to respond and show me how I could have "misinterpreted" verses from the Bible - get back to me. For now, have fun ignoring, I am disappointed but I'll live.

Bye.

[fedorowich]

In reading a couple of posts, I have this to add.
First of all, Santa Claus is, was always, and always will be just a toy used to indoctrinate children. It eats at the innocence of children for if they follow certain rules, a man will shower them in gifts. It is, in fact the opposite of a scare tactic, like heaven is to hell. It is not enough to say that being nice and generous to others will evoke parents to give their children gifts. A mythological character had to be created by Christianity to take all the benefits of a happy child receiving gifts. Although, I do find it funny, for in the child's later years, the child 'smartens up' and realizes that Santa was indeed a hoax. The damage though is already done. For during those years, the child correlates happiness with the teachings of Jesus and the Christmas story. Quite ingenious if you ask me.

The other problem lies with the context issue of the bible. The bible is now thousands of years old. 4 religions rely and were built off of the bible. I am also assuming we are talking about the New Testament. The Old Testament was very violent and according to Christianity, it needs to be forgotten because God in those days was rash and angry. Not to mention all of the murders, genocides and pillaging. Anyway, I have read it and there are endless versus that could be interpreted in any way. i.e.: the story of Abraham. There is no right way to read the bible or interpret its meaning. Therefore, no one can say u interpreted it wrong. Although, is there more than one way to interpret murder? That also leads me to another point. The bible according to the pope is truth. Truth is truth and can not be interpreted. So how can the bible are interpreted? It must be used for its literal text. People say no. I say if the bible is truth and therefore God's words, than that doesn't make sense.

Next, is the concept that the unbeliever must prove to the believer that there belief is wrong. This makes no sense. If I believed that a pink unicorn existed and told Joe about it, it is in my duty to explain to Joe my thinking and provide evidence. Does it make sense to tell the Joe that he must prove to me that this unicorn does not exist? That is absurd. Extraordinary claims call for extraordinary evidence. Now if I told Joe that this unicorn does exist but had no way of proving it, don't I look a bit nuts? I could tell him that there is a magical book written a person which told of how a unicorn existed. I could tell him that I feel its presence and it helps me. Would Joe not turn to me and say, ya so, don’t mean it exists. Joe would then be on his way, for I sound like an idiot. It doesn't mean that I couldn't range around the country, proclaim my story and show the book and couldn't get followers to believe. If I told children to believe, chances are they would grow up to believe it.

Another thing, why does God always take the easy way out? If something can not be explained, why does God always win? Why do we have to know exactly everything? Just because evolution hasn't been fully proven does not mean that God wins by default. Micro evolution has be proven and tested, and macro evolution probably can never be because it is immensely greater than our lifetime. Why does God than win the evolution battle? Yes we can give u 40+ years of scientific work, proof of micro evolution, biology, chemistry, and physics, but because it doesn't explain it all, God wins. Is it not the fool’s easy way out? If the God aspect proved any evidence to creation, I'd be all for it. The problem is, there is none? People who say that God created evolution have no base to make that claim. That again is the easy way out. Not to mention that problem of, if everything has a creator and God created this, than what created God? I have yet to hear a just answer.

This leads me to the theory debate. People still don't understand what it takes to become a theory in the real scientific world. Any scientist can't just think of something and call it a real theory. Theories are based off of repetitive events that always give the same results. Therefore if the theory of the big bang or any theory is stated, it is not 100% bogus. It may not be 100% right, but nothing in science ever is. Cures for diseases can become undone, Aspirin doesn't always work, and cancer can come back. They were all built off of theories and yet everybody takes and uses them to this very date. Yet something stated that may clash against a religious belief get spat on. When’s the last time any of you prayed for a headache to go away or a failing kidney to heal. Instead they turn to the scientific community for help and then in return, spat on there "theories". The scientific community is not there to disprove religion. It is there to help and evolve our species. It will by default disprove religion, but that does not mean it is necessary to bad mouth scientists and their theories. I say, the next time you hear a scientific debate about how evolution and big bang are theories that are bogus, ask yourself why you rely on science. Yes it is not perfect, so then why take part of it. Don't go for any operations or take any drugs. If your God is the creator and cares about you, then will he not provide his followers help in there time of need? Science has never done anything to harm religion. Is it not time to think of what scientists have done to help us, maybe they know what they are doing. Maybe they even know what they are saying.

Here are some final aspects to think about. Some are quotes from quantum physics major, so I can not take all the credit:

There was a time when religion ruled the world. Is called the dark ages. Are we not smarter than them?

Infinite Regression prevents a God from even existing

If the Bible was written by man, and man is flawed
Then what does that say about the bible or Gawd?
And if that same book was written by a man who wasn't trustworthy
What does that say about the book?

Ask why god said let their be light before he created any light producing objects?

If the memories of a life's retained in the brain
And the brain dies inside it nothing remains
Wouldn't that mean
You would have absolutely and positively no recollection or account of previous things
When you die?

It's amazing how this God is ubiquitous omnipresent
Existent in every stitch of existence
But yet and still it's this place devoid of his presence of torment and sickness
You go forever for 80 years of sins you committed

I'm tired of sayin' the word God
It's self-defeating meaningless
Just a title, idle reverence for some lenience
And lenience for what
Every single sin that we have in our arsenal he gave us to strut
And For what?
What kind of sense does it make?
To create a sinful creation that you judge from the gate
And then send your only son to prohibit the fate
That you ultimately responsible for
And in why the hell am we sayin he
Cause if God had a sex than he wouldn't be
And maybe if he was God then he couldn't leave
His greatest creation alone in it's time of need
And this is what I mean

The church has taught you that faith belongs in the place of reason

[bm-21Lemko]

You just repeated exactly what V-G said in his posts, so the information was already established.

A thing to remember, Scientists blew up chernobyl while trying to conduct a test, that they knew would overload the reactor's core.
Because of this incident the town of При́п'ять is no longer inhabited and many people who lived around the area have birth defects. Also the land will be contaminated for a very long time, so the land is unusable.