Atheism and Christianity debate

[V-G]

Nice to "meet" you. It is good to know something about a person on the other end of a computer, makes it more personal.

Are you considering trying for a swim team in College/University? I figured you must have taken Macro Economics course not so long ago by the formula you posted here on another thread. I remember taking that course back in 2001, seems like a very long time ago.

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Now the Bible. I haven't had the time (or desire) to dive into islam, but I probably should have, it would make for a more interesting argument. This is why I stick to Christianity... When I was a kid I was taught a lot about being a good Christian by my grandma, I was taught about the prayer and the way to behave in the Church, all kinds of things. When I hit the age of 15 I really got into religion. I would go our local church and talk to the priest as often as I could. I read different books on how to interpret the Bible and it kind of snowballed from there, one could say I was a bit obsessed.

Please note that I had a reason to search for God back then, both my health and my family were not doing well. It was a rather difficult time in my life and I thought that praying would help, little did I know back then eh? One day it just hit me, why bother? Instead of moping around with my problems and talking to the priest I should do something, and I did. I went back to the swim team (like you I enjoy sports) and worked my way up from being the slowest swimmer to someone competition worthy. It felt good, I also joined a boxing club (I used to be bullied a lot in school, weak kids always get picked on), once I picked up some boxing skills, living in Ukraine was a blast.

Next thing you know, I get accepted to a College in UK. This is where I got curious about religion again... leaving Ukraine was hard, especially just as all my "big" problems seemed to have disappeared (been solved). But here is the thing... our college had 70 different nationalities and I couldn't believe it but every religious person was just convinced they were right. By that time I already considered myself as an atheist, but a curious one.

I talked to many folks, without going into detail of why and just observing their customs/traditions.

Long story short, the more I looked the more I realized that the God that I was brought up to believe in just could not possibly exist. Every next conversation here just reiterates that conclusion for me. I know StormAU (Michael) would be unhappy to read this but it is true. He is a very smart guy and knows a lot about religion (more than most people I met) and even he can't answer my questions.

The truth of the matter is, the Bible was written by men, it may have bits of truth (like a history book) but it also has a lot of junk, made up stuff, just like any history book.

[V-G]

StormAU already got a post from me re: the Bible, let me copy/paste something here too just so we are all on the same page:

Let's try to look at the Bible as though you have never seen it before.

Imagine that we are good friends. One day we are talking:

Me: Wow, you will not believe this new book I've been reading!

You: What's it about?

Me: It is a manual for living a better life. It is also a guide to creating a better society for ourselves and our children. It has changed my life!

You: That sounds like an important book. Who wrote it?

Me: The author is supposed to be the smartest person in the universe.

You: That's amazing -- if the author is the smartest person in the universe, the book must be absolutely brilliant. I can't wait to see it. Do you have a copy with you?

Me: Absolutely! I carry it with me everywhere I go! Here, have a look for yourself...

You open the book to a random page, and you find this:

Any of the people of Israel, or of the aliens who reside in Israel, who give any of their offspring to Molech shall be put to death; the people of the land shall stone them to death. I myself will set my face against them, and will cut them off from the people, because they have given of their offspring to Molech, defiling my sanctuary and profaning my holy name. And if the people of the land should ever close their eyes to them, when they give of their offspring to Molech, and do not put them to death, I myself will set my face against them and against their family, and will cut them off from among their people, them and all who follow them in prostituting themselves to Molech.

If any turn to mediums and wizards, prostituting themselves to them, I will set my face against them, and will cut them off from the people. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy; for I am the Lord your God. Keep my statutes, and observe them; I am the Lord; I sanctify you. All who curse father or mother shall be put to death; having cursed father or mother, their blood is upon them.

If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death. The man who lies with his father’s wife has uncovered his father’s nakedness; both of them shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall be put to death; they have committed perversion; their blood is upon them. If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. [Leviticus, chapter 20]

You are not quite sure what to say. You look at me for a moment.

You: I thought you said that this is written by the most intelligent person in the universe. If we are going to follow what this author says, we have to kill half the people in America. We are supposed to kill everyone who has cursed his father or mother, everyone who has committed adultery, and every homosexual.

Me: Well, that's in the old testament, you see. The book is really two books, and the "old" part of the book doesn't really apply.

You: Are you saying that the smartest person in the universe once wanted us to kill every adulterer and homosexual, but then changed his mind? That somehow makes it better? If the "old part" no longer applies, then why did you hand it to me when I asked to see the book?

Me: Well, parts of it do apply.

You: Didn't you just tell me that it doesn't apply?

You open the book to another random page and you find this:

When you buy a male Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years, but in the seventh he shall go out a free person, without debt. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s and he shall go out alone. But if the slave declares, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out a free person’, then his master shall bring him before God. He shall be brought to the door or the doorpost; and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him for life.

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed; he shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt unfairly with her. If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish the food, clothing, or marital rights of the first wife. And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out without debt, without payment of money.

Whoever strikes a person mortally shall be put to death. If it was not premeditated, but came about by an act of God, then I will appoint for you a place to which the killer may flee. But if someone wilfully attacks and kills another by treachery, you shall take the killer from my altar for execution.

Whoever strikes father or mother shall be put to death.

Whoever kidnaps a person, whether that person has been sold or is still held in possession, shall be put to death. Whoever curses father or mother shall be put to death.

When individuals quarrel and one strikes the other with a stone or fist so that the injured party, though not dead, is confined to bed, but recovers and walks around outside with the help of a staff, then the assailant shall be free of liability, except to pay for the loss of time, and to arrange for full recovery.

When a slave-owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives for a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property. [Exodus, chapter 21]

Again, you are dumfounded. Here the author of the book is advocating slavery, the branding of slaves, and the wholesale beating of slaves. You are not quite sure what to say. You look at me for a moment.

You: You have to be kidding me. Here the "smartest person in the universe" is telling us that slavery is OK and that we are free to beat our slaves.

You open the book to another random page and you find this:

I desire, then, that in every place the men should pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or argument; also that the women should dress themselves modestly and decently in suitable clothing, not with their hair braided, or with gold, pearls, or expensive clothes, but with good works, as is proper for women who profess reverence for God. Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty. [1 Timothy, chapter 2]

You are nearly speechless. But you manage to find your voice.

You: Is this some kind of joke? "I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man." That is totally sexist! In America, there are millions of female teachers and we have women throughout our corporate and govenment hierarchies. No intelligent person believes that women should be silenced.

As you page through the book further you find that it is totally sexist from beginning to end.

You keep opening the book to random pages, and nearly everything you find is utter nonsense. Either it is meaningless, completely irrelevant, disgusting or downright wrong.

If you are a scientist it is even worse, and it starts with the very first line:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...

That's not true. In the beginning a natural event created the universe as we know it, and the earth did not form until billions of years later. The creation story in Genesis is completely wrong. Simply read Genesis and you can see it. For example, the Bible says that light and darkness are created after the water but before the sun. Everyone knows that the sun came first, then the planet and its rotation (which is what causes light and darkness to occur on a daily basis) and then the water, and this all happened over million of years. There are many other problems with the Bible:

* Man did not come from a handful of dust through some mythological being. Man evolved from other species like every other living thing has for hundreds of millions of years.
* The Bible talks about a world-wide flood that covered earth in 5.5 miles of water and killed everything, yet we know it never happened. That is clear from the archeolgical record.
* There was no tower of Babble.

[V-G]

The list goes on and on. The Bible is nonsense in a thousand different scientific ways.

Ask yourself this simple question: Why, when you read the Bible, are you not left in awe? Why doesn't a book written by an omniscient being leave you with a sense of wonder and amazement? If you are reading a book written by the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving creator of the universe, wouldn't you expect to be stunned by the brilliance, the clarity and the wisdom of the author? Would you not expect each new page to intoxicate you with its incredible prose and its spectacular insight? Wouldn't you expect the author to tell us things that scientists have not been able to discover yet?

Yet, when we open the Bible and actually read it, we find it is nothing like that at all. Instead of leaving us in awe, it leaves us dumbfounded by all of the nonsense and backwardness that it contains. If you would look at the Bible fresh, and read what it actually says, you find that the Bible is ridiculous. The examples shown above barely scratch the surface of the Bible's numerous problems. If we are honest with ourselves, it is obvious that an "all-knowing" God had absolutely nothing to do with this book.

The Bible is a book written thousands of years ago by primitive men. A book that advocates senseless murder, slavery and the oppression of women has no place in our society today. It is time for us to recognize this simple fact.

[bm-21Lemko]

here sorry, i did not post this in time.

Volodya,

here we go. According to the hebrews there are two types of laws

1. Recieved from god at mt. Saini like the commandments.

2. Laws believed to be of human origin but divinely inspired, including Rabbinic decrees, interpretations, customs, etc.

so that is why they would have been acceptable at the time period because of number 2


I don't want to swim in college and really next year i would have to drop about 4 seconds on my butter fly and about the same for my 100 free. You know how hard it is to drop time. Like you I started out slow and had to work really hard to get fast. my worst experince in swimming turned out to make be a faster swimmer. I hate hypoxic drills, I was always afraid of drowning, but if i came up my coach would yell at me and make me do it again.

i have doubted god's existence as well. you are correct the bible was written by men, but it was also written by god too. I know what it is like to go throught the hard times and nothing happen even when you pray. That is one of the reasons i started exploring more religions becuase my questions could not be answered.

[bm-21Lemko]

The Bible is a book written thousands of years ago by primitive men. A book that advocates senseless murder, slavery and the oppression of women has no place in our society today. It is time for us to recognize this simple fact.

That is true. It was written by the laws man created and by God as well.

I have to be honest, in sunday school we really didn't talk about the torah a lot.

so that is why i advocate it as half true.

you have to remember this was a time of hamarabi's code and eye for an eye

I will say this, nothing is ever black and white when it is left open to interpret

[StormAU]

If as a Christian you separate the OT and NT you are missing the point of the NT.

The OT is a history of the Hebrew peoples, 12 tribes who were chosen by God to be his people on Earth, a people who whatever they blessed would be blessed and whatever they cursed would be cursed as long as they followed God's ways. If they didn't then all hell would literally break loose. If you read the OT you will see quite often they didn't follow God's ways.

From early in Genesis God promised a saviour, throughout the OT that saviour or Messiah is mentioned. So apart from being a book of the history of the Hebrew peoples the OT is also a book of promise. It is also a book of literature such as poetry, the Psalms and Songs of Solomon come to mind, these books show a whole range of human emotion from utter despair to all out praise. You may notice in the NT similar things are discussed. It is also a book of legalese and Leviticus and to a lesser extent the books of the Judges are of this genre.

Now we come to the end of the OT and God is "silent" for about 300 years. The people have what they need to survive God is providing for them even though he is "silent". During this time the Pharisees and Saducees "make up" a heap of by-laws apparently derived from the 10 commandments and the rules set out in Leviticus, this situation makes Hebrew life extremely regimented. Also during this time the Maccabees are quite successful and Judah and Israel attain a level of independence from outside influences until Rome walks in and establishes, many years later, Judea as part of the Roman Empire. The people are calling for God to save them, to bring the promised Messiah mentioned many times in the OT but they are looking for a temporal or earthly saviour to release them from Rome not a spiritual one to release them from Sin.

Now we come to the NT, it is simply the culmination of the OT. It is the story of the Christ (thus the name Christianity) and what he did. It is the change from the Laws of the OT for the Hebrews, and anyone else who chose to follow them, to the commandments of the NT, commandments that I have already mentioned. No where in the NT does it say that you have to stone a child to death if it does something wrong, no where in the NT does it say that you must cut of some ones hand for touching something, they were OT laws and were abolished with the coming of the Messiah. The Hebrews wanted the OT laws to be applied to the Romans and for God to release them from subjugation like he did in Egypt and the captivities but that's not what the NT is about. The people had 300 years to get it right and they couldn't so God come back and made it easy for them saying that all they needed to do was believe in Christ and follow him, nothing about special foods except for the last supper, nothing about reaping revenge, but alot about love and respect.

Now if anyone has a problem with loving a brother, don't get smart with that line ok you know what I mean, then I am sorry to say that's the real issue and it is your problem not anyone else's. The time for God to intervene in daily matters with show or might is long past, the time for God to step in again (sending Gabriel for a 4th time) is long gone because we have the knowledge and the resources and there is no excuse for anyone to be slack to another person in the ways that caused God to intervene in the past.

Those that have faith have nothing to fear, if something happens and there is a need to ask for help then that help will come but I doubt it will be in a way that people want or expect. The whole things about "Why God wont heal Amputees" shows a lack of faith and understanding. The whole thing about why wont God step in and help everyone also shows a lack of faith and understanding.

With that all said I don't see the sense in going over the same things again and again, there comes a point where Luke 9.5 is appropriate.

[bm-21Lemko]

New Testament.

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Matthew 25:35

Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Matthew 5:42

old Testament

And they journeyed: and the terror of God was upon the cities that [were] round about them, and they did not pursue after the sons of Jacob.

Genesis 35:5

Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place [such] over them, [to be] rulers of thousands, [and] rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:

Exodus 18:21


See you can tell the difference.

The first five books of the Old Testament are usually called "the law" or "the Torah" by the Jews. The term "Torah" means "direction, law, instruction." Mostly by Moses

The Bible is a parable with significant literal structures. The combination of torah is laws written by man and laws written by god.

By King Soloman

Everything has an appointed season, and there is a time for every matter under the heaven.
A time to give birth and a time to die; a time to plant and a time to uproot that which is planted.
A time to kill and a time to heal; a time to break and a time to build.
A time to weep and a time to laugh; a time of wailing and a time of dancing.
A time to cast stones and a time to gather stones; a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing.
A time to seek and a time to lose; a time to keep and a time to cast away.
A time to rend and a time to sew; a time to be silent and a time to speak.
A time to love and a time to hate; a time for war and a time for peace.

I will say this, nothing is ever black and white when it is left open to interpret

-Away from the Bible


Volodya,

What is your favorite type of Music?

I like rock and like playing my guitar, I do wish i had a bass though.

I like a lot of British bands
Some german, american, and ukrainian bands as well as russian bands.

MY favorite genres are punk and Alternative.