Yet another example of why there is NO God!

[StormAU]

Originally Posted by V-G

Here is how I see it, they have the same information as you do and they chose to have more "MUSTs" than you do (praying in certain ways etc.), that makes me think that their interpretation of those same sources is stricter than yours. If I were a conservative and had to choose a safe bet here, I would go with stricter rules.

Ah the Pharisee's and Sadducee's thought like you do, that God wanted us to follow some strict and unfollowable guidelines. They were wrong. Thinks about this, the OT is a historical account of the Hebrew people and their relationship with God, throughout the OT there are bits and pieces that talk about a Messiah, that point to a time in their future when the promised one will come and release them from their problems. Now Moses was given 10 Commandments, the strict Hebrews over a long period of time developed something like a couple of hundred ByCommandments (the only way I can think of saying something like ByLaws) that were so strict it wasn't funny. All the Hebrew people had to do was follow 10 Commandments to show their faith in God, they couldn't do that 90% of the time. So why make things stricter knowing full well human beings couldn't cope with it.

So this brings us to the NT. Now the main theme of the NT is Christ, it starts with him and ends with him and the bits in the middle talk about him. The NT fulfils the OT prophecy of the Messiah, now all those ByCommandments that the Pharisee's and Sadducee's made are useless cause all that is required in the NT is that one believes in and recognises Christ as God and follows his ways. Everything else then follows naturally in a time frame that is different for each person.

Originally Posted by V-G

You claim that you "know" and we seem to fundamentally disagree on this. How can you possibly "know"? You can't. Just like I don't KNOW that god doesn't exist, it simply fits my view of the world better, it makes sense. But I could be wrong and I am OK with that. How can you know? Keep in mind that people used to "know" that the Earth was flat, didn't they? How can you be 100% sure. Further to this argument let me refer back to your post about corruption within Christianity. If corruption ended and there is only one good interpretation of what one should believe in why is it that you still have so many branches? Again, what makes you (personally) smarter than everyone else amongst Christians? Could it be that you are wrong?

You have claimed that you know God doesn't exist yet here we are talking about him! What makes me know? It is really hard to explain to someone who doesn't believe ok, lets just say that throughout my life I have never had to question this because each day I see things that confirm it for me. In my gut (you know the gut feeling idea) I know its real. In my mind (you know the use your reasoning skills idea) I know its real. You are correct people did "know" the Earth was flat and they were wrong, no one here has said they were right. They were wrong because they had never experienced the world and it was blasphemy (to the CC) to question that. Even with legends of people like St Bran the Blessed, I am not sure if he was a real person, who sailed to the New World (the America's) the CC said that Europe was the last continent. There are even maps showing strange creatures in the North Sea and the Earth dropping off before you even see Iceland. These were beliefs of people who have never experienced that the world was anything but flat, they had never sailed it and it was in the Churches interest to suggest that legends such as Bran the Blessed and theories that the world was round were just stories to scare people.

I never said corruption ended, the CC and other churches wouldn't be in the state they are in with crisis' such as paedophilia if corruption had ended. The idea that there would be One Christian Church cause there is only one way to do things is a great idea, but it neglects to account for free will and differences in interpretation.

I'll give you an example from recent history. In South Africa their was a policy called Aparthied, I'm sure you know about it, one denomination that was fairly powerful politically in South Africa stated that native Sub Saharan Africans were naturally evil. They based this on the story of Ham, Seth and Japeth, in which Ham was shown to have done the wrong thing. Now the Sons of Ham it is thought travelled to Africa. Individual interpretation then put 2 and 2 together and come up with the "fact" that all Sub Saharan Africans must be evil and are therefore the Sons of Ham. This tripe was preached for close to 50 years in the churches of this denomination in South Africa because some people interpreted the Bible to their own gains. Now if that denomination was the One true way to think of things then send me to Hell right now, cause there is no way on Earth I would say that one group of people are better than others just because of their skin colour. Therefore it would be natural for people like myself who believe that everyone deserves respect regardless of their colour would look for a denomination that we feel follows the Bible in this way.

[V-G]

Hi Michael,

I sense you are losing your patience with me. Please don't, if you feel like I am coming on too just let me know. I understand that explaining your faith to me must be difficult, and doing so over the magic of the Internet is even harder. I honestly appreciate the insight but would also like to mention that hopefully you are gaining something from it as well. You say that throughout your life you never questioned, you always "knew" and I am trying to get you to think about this from my angle, this way maybe I can understand you better too. The logic is circular and hopefully benefits both of us, satisfies my curiosity and makes your faith stronger (after the interrogation).
OK, so you always see things around you that you attribute to god and his power. What kind of things? Why don’t you look for another explanation or just accept that fact that we may not have one yet? Many of the things we see today as part of our daily lives would be perceived as magic trick only 50 years ago. It doesn’t mean that if we are unable to explain something it has to be attributed to some supernatural creature.
You say that the corruption did not end yet. Doesn’t it make it more difficult for you to claim that you found the one true and proper way to god? Maybe you’ve been raised in the wrong place at the wrong time and it has been embedded into your brain to believe that way and you still do. Could that be the case?
I am asking for the impossible, I want to know what makes you tick, what makes you believe so strongly in something that looks totally unreasonable to me. It doesn’t seem that you are interested in why I don’t believe as much as I am interested in the fact that you do.

[V-G]

You seem surprised that we are talking this much about something I don't believe in, you have every right to be surprised. My answer to you is - curiosity, I have a hard time comprehending how something this unreasonable and unlikely can be so popular.

[StormAU]

Volodya, I'll tell you if I am getting impatient with you don't worry about that.

I am interested in your perceptions but, and I am being honest here, I am feeling this discussion has so many points and I cannot answer them all. I actually feel as though it is just you and I here now discussing and everyone else is "looking" at the new guy trying to analyse him. I am also finding, as you have figured out, it hard to express some things as they are really inexpressible, if you know what I mean. In other words to me you are looking for concrete answers to something that is not concrete in nature as it is really an individual thing. I'll continue and try to answer your questions as best as I can ok. And don't think I am not interested in your POV just because I am not asking you alot, I am reading what you say and taking that in.

What do I see that makes me know God is there? nature for one thing, I just know your gonna say something like that doesn't need God. Well to me it does, The odds of a "Big Bang" occuring from nothing and making an entire universe, multiple universes even, and all that is therein is astronomical and considering there was nothing there to begin with it has to be impossible. I know that God has done this not some off the wall chance bang of nothingness.

Evolution is another thing that makes me know God is there. Let me explain. I have studied Archaeology, Anthropology, Evolution etc and I can tell you without a doubt that the puzzle does not fit at all. There is no doubt that there have been creatures that some consider to be the forefathers of modern Humanity. I say bollocks to that. Ardepithicus, is before Australopithcine yet there is no link between them. Australopithicine is before Homo yet there is no link between them. No evolution from one to another, no generational changes nothing. They don't even over lap in time and place. My lecturers at my old university are the guys who found Homo Floriensis. They have come up with brilliant theories of what occurred to make the "hobbit" what it was yet nothing can be shown to prove any of it. Some even say Homo Floriensis is actually an Australopithicine and others say it is a whole new Genus. Well that's all great but it does absolutely nothing to prove that it is what we are.

Another example from my own country. There is evidence to suggest that Australia has been under continuous occupation for 100 k years. There is sufficient evidence to suggest that number is definately 60 k years. Apparently Cro-mag man and Neandertal man were the last species of Humanity to co-exist on the planet at any one time and that was about 30 k years ago, yet Aboriginal Australians have been in Australia for at least 60 k years. So that to me suggest that Homo Sapien Sapiens have been on Earth at the same time as the other 2 as well. There is sufficient evidence to show that genetically there has been as much change in human phisiology in the last 5000 years as there was in the preceding 100 k years which is a natural thing considering the world itself is changing.

You ask me to look for other explanations, my answer to that is I have already studied them and they don't fit the question they are trying to answer. I have never discounted anything and I wouldn't, instead I look at each argument and see if it "fits" the question. God is the only thing that to me fits the question.

The claim that corruption in a church makes it difficult for me to say I have found the 1 true way doesn't take into account I look past the corruption and look at the source of the message. The corruption is because of humanities desire to control things. You will always get people in things who want to control others. That isn't how it should be, instead we shouold be sharing and helping each other in a way that makes us all equal.

Just as a Muslim is expected to try and convert me by showing me the errors of my ways according to the Koran so am I supposed to try and show a Muslim the error of their ways according to the Bible, a book which they already have access to.

[V-G]

The similarity of our approaches is uncanny and yet we arrive at two very different views. You end up being deeply religious and I deeply believe that there is no god. At least our paths are similar and only conclusions are different.

I completely understand that there are too many issues to cover just like that. Same holds true for me too . Lets both try and limit / channel this debate some place, otherwise we'll never hit any kind of agreement.

Since this debate is not about winning or losing one can safely give and take some. I am willing to assume that there is the God, some super creature that created our universes. Now help me find him. You know me a little by now, I am usually looking for concrete evidence but since we both agree there is none in this case at least let me understand the "soft" evidence. I would like to move away from complete disbelief to say "it is plausible" statement.

My logic on this matter goes like this: even if there was a creator of our planet and all the things on the planet, how do we know it {pardon the "it" here, but we aren't talking about the God you believe in here yet} is still alive?

To venture into the world of fantasy, let us assume that the human race managed to create artificial intelligence through some strange computer development. We created a bunch of robots to help us become even more obese. They live because they are smarter than us and better in every way, but we die for whatever reason (say some disease that wiped us out). Since they have intelligence "artificial" and live on this planet for say a 1000 years they lost the initial records of how they were created (volatile memory after numerous "upgrades"). They would too seek an explanation and may never get one. Would it be reasonable for them to assume that their creator was better than them? Would it be reasonable to assume that their creator still cares for them and is alive and well? This little fantasy world I described is just as ridiculous sounding to you as you claiming that the only reasonable/acceptable explanation you could find was Christianity and the God. I mean no offense here Michael, I am just saying it how it is to me.

Now, I am open to the idea that you could be right, I just need to see how you picked this one theory out of about a million others that are just as plausible. Heck, I'd even go as far as saying that we could all be living in a Matrix (remember the movie?). I hope we do not but how would believing in Matrix be any different than believing in the God you believe in? After all, in matrix we would have those "agents" that could do miracles - Jesus did the same, right?

There is no expectation on my part to be convinced, but you have to admit that we have a few things in common. Why is it that we come to such different conclusions?

{re: corruption, I can see you point so at least we are in agreement there now, progress yay!}

[StormAU]

Hi Volodya.

I cracked up just then when I read your last post. I'm enjoying this chat, even if I am having difficulty expressing it very well. We do think alike on many things and we have both come to different conclusions through the "evidence" that we have seen.

Ok, with your Robot example I need to remind you that we have the Bible. It tells us what we need to know. The thing is we need to be able to understand it, some people can others can't, the key is being receptive to what it is saying. Getting back to the Muslims, they have the Bible but do not accept it, they are not receptive to what it is saying.

As for your question about God still being alive, I would say that moving further from my nature example that if God wasn't alive neither would the world be able to support life. If we "agree" that the Big Bang theory and the theories of evolution (I say theories cause there are so many of them) is/are so highly improbable that it is actually impossible then we need to think how would the world be able to continue anyway. I do believe there is such a thing as chance but not to the degree that an entire universe can "happen" and then keep itself going. I do however believe and know that God made the Universe and still to this very day keeps it going.

[V-G]

Great... just great. I knew you were going to bring up the Bible after my robot example, I just knew it. But I have three DVDs! They tell me everything about Zion and the key maker and the agents and ... you get it, I know.

Bible was also written by the hand of a man. Just wanted to mention that.

Since I don't see you accepting my Robot story any time soon as the new religion to replace Christianity let me tell you something else.

You said that God created everything because evolution / big bang theories just don't cut it. Alright, we agree that those theories are far from perfect and we need something better but why the God? Two parts here: 1) if god created universe, who created god? 2) if god always existed, then what makes you think the universe didn't always exist too?