Yet another example of why there is NO God!

[V-G]

I doubt that those who don't read the Bible miss out on the wisdom, there are plenty of better sources .

You say that I can ask you questions because you aren't offended easily, does that mean that I offend people with my questions?

It is not acceptable to kill in today's world just because someone offended you. Does it still happen? Sure, but it is not acceptable. We know that law is not sufficient so we need ethics to guide us, no matter how vague those rules may be... you chose to rely on the Bible, and let me tell you - it is as vague as one can be, why not help with the development of ethical standards?

I do have a question to you today - why did you choose to believe in god? What was the turning point in your life?
Before you answer let me tell you what I think happened: you grew up in an environment where most people around you believed in god, you then found all kinds of reasons to believe after growing into an adult. By now you are quite set in your own ways and changing your mind is not really an option, so you never even question if you were right or wrong to begin with.

I am taking a risk here by trying to guess how you came to believe in god. Being wrong isn't pleasant, but something tells me that I am close to the truth.

[is5512]

Better sources? Please name them.

The Bible is as vague as can be? In post #83, you stated you neither believe in God nor read the Bible. That is not the same, however, as saying you have never read the Bible. It's possible you could even be a disgruntled Bible scholar. Could you please share your level of expertise?

Share in the developement of ethical standards? Could you please point out a (real or hypothetical) situation where the Word of God would be insufficient? In fact, I dare you to.

My background? LOL!!! My friend, I come from a long line of heretics! My grandparents were Orthodox in a society where the government said God didn't exist. My parents became Baptists and incurred the wrath and persecution of those of "the true faith." When I discovered the Baptist faith left too much out that was in the Bible, and inserted too much that wasn't there, I became a pentecostal...earning the wrath of my family. I've gone even further, and associated myself with first the Vineyard Movement and then with Word of Faith. We don't dare talk about religion at all now unless they need help.

...and along the way, I studied, practiced and dismissed various occult and new age arts. Been there, done that, and got the t-shirt.

I never question? LOL!!! There are at least two valid reasons to study the Bible. One is because you love God and want to learn more. The other is Self Defense. When I go to church -- any church -- I bring one of my Bibles and a notebook. If the speaker says, "For God so loved the world..."etc, I write it down and look up every single verse mentioned when I get home. What he said had better be in one of the half-dozen translations I've got, or be a reasonable translation from the original Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic, or I'm gonna call him on it. As I've gotten older and crankier, my B-S detector has gotten less and less tolerant. (btw, the Ukrainian and English versions of Psalm 23 differ in the last verse. I looked it up. The English is wrong.) Some preachers make things up. I don't let them lie to me.

Pivotal moments? How about the night I was drunked up on Jack, and God and I had a little chat during a snowstorm (and IS 55:12 has been my favorite verse ever since)? Or the night I saw Heaven open to me and I recieved the infilling of the Holy Spirit? Or the relentless Christian love a drummer (I was a blues bassplayer) showed me that led me to the Vineyard? Through these and many more instances, God and I had intimate contact. That's what we were created for, and that's all He's ever really wanted.

I can't point to a single moment where I decided to believe in God. We've just been together too many years and walked down too many roads for me to think He doesn't exist.

[V-G]

Reading a kid's science book brings more wisdom than the Bible ever will. The book is usually well written and the arguments are well structured. As you grow up you start reading more important books, but never do you even need to read the Bible to be wise.

Do you really need to look hard for an example for the "word of God" to be insufficient? Well, should I change the light bulb while the light is light is still on (the current is still running)? Is this something I can get out of your god's word? Or maybe, just maybe, I'd need another person to tell me, or to read in the book or to deduce it somehow from prior experiences that I should not to that? If you think this isn't enough, how about the issue of abortion? Or what about the gay population?

You shared your background and it is only fair that I tell a bit about self. I grew up in a communist country while my father worked for the party, religion wasn't allowed, he'd be fired. Soviet Union collapse and I get head into the whole religion thing, I read countless books, try to read the bible, then tried to read the bible in English etc. A few years later it just comes to me, this is the most ridiculous thing! It is all wrong, it is just as likely that God exists as it is that some Alian came over and "planted" us on this planet. Even if we were created by some superior creature, he/she may well be dead by now. Believing and praising something like that is just wasting time.

I'd normally let it all go and never mention it again but after thinking that way I felt a great amount of guilt, I was afraid that if I was wrong I'd go to hell etc. and many people of "your kind" took advantage of that. Religious groups would torment me for years until (luckily for me) those fears and insanity all went away. I am now as certain as you are but we are on the opposite sides.

Before you start posting on how some Satan or whatever took over my soul and hence no more fear, let me tell you how I think it all happened:
-If I live my life as a good person, do what the norms of my society ask for, I should have a great and very fulfilling life on earth. So this covers my life in this real world.
-If I was wrong and there is god and he is the way you tell me he is (fair, loving etc.) then he'll value my life for what it is and the fact that I didn't believe in him should be welcomed as it was the most reasonable thing to do. But if he sends me to hell JUST BECAUSE I didn't believe, then he isn't the god that is fair and loving, he is a vindictive prick and ether way he'd know I feel that way so hell would be the only option.
-If I was right, at least I didn't waste my time praying to "Santa" every day.

I got to run, so this is a hasty post (sorry) but I just wanted to put it out there while I had time. I wish we were talking in person I am sure we'd have a really good time. I don't think (even for a second) that either one of us would get upset because of our views, I respect your views and you seem to respect mine (we just disagree).

Cheers,
V-G

[is5512]

No, a kid's science book will not bring wisdom, it brings facts. To put it another way: A science book will tell you how to know it's time to change a light bulb, and how to do it. The Bible will tell you what you should do about your neighbor's lightbulb.

(And this would be a perfect place to start a new thread: "How many Christians <or atheists> does it take to change a lightbulb?" I love those. A pity atheists don't have the rapier-like wit of Christians. sigh.)

God's Word doesn't address the ethics of changing lightbulbs. When a neo-religious group starts calling for the ethical treatment of lightbulbs, I'm leaving. The murder of the innocent and sexual perversion are covered, however.

With all due respect, your post #85 suggests I was unwilling or unable to reject the tenants of my upbringing, and therefore "became" a Christian. And yet I read your story in the previous post...

It does bring up an interesting question: "I tried twice to make it work. I couldn't. Therefore, it doesn't work." Is "twice" enough? No? How about "three times"? Not good enough? What's the "magic number"?

The story, perhaps apocryphal but who cares, goes that Edison only got light on his 1,000th try. The "lightbulb joke" back then was that the fool kept trying when obviously lightbulbs were scientifically impossible. Fortunately, his name at birth was Taras Grigorievich Edisonko, and we know Ukrainians are too stubborn to quit.

I may have made that last part up...and maybe not.

Your closing paragraph has So Much worthy of responding to...such as "did Stalin think he was 'doing good,' and why didn't God accept him as he was." The Bible says sin is sin is sin; the penalty for the least is the penalty for the greatest. Or perhaps there's such a thing as "a little bit evil" or "a little bit pregnant."

[V-G]

OK, we are getting closer and closer here...

Please show me where in my thread I suggested that I tried two times and BECAUSE it didn't work I gave up? I gave up because I realized that I was wrong even trying! Just like you are wrong for reading that book so many times and arguing with priests.

You like to call people on their BS, so here is my call to you - show me a verse in the Bible that shows what I should do with the neighbor's light bulb (figuratively speaking of course, since they didn't exist when the book was written). And when (IF) you find it, why don't you prove to me that I couldn't have come up with the same solution by other means (NOT reading the Bible). But I guess that would be too much too ask, wouldn't it?

And while we are at it, please do tell me how you feel about homosexuality! I am curious how you explain that god's creation and love happens to limit this "ungodly" act. Do speak your mind! Maybe even explain how the people of "God" happen to hit the news raping little boys - oh wait, don't go there, I know what you will tell me already, I've heard it too many times and don't need the repeat.

A little evil or a little pregnant? I know that religious folks usually have trouble with logic but this was bad even for a religious guy. I have to be honest with you here and slam you on the forehead by telling you that evil is not TRUE/FALSE kind of thing, but pregnancy is! It is a binary state and evil isn't. If I stole a candy from the store and you murdered and tortured hundreds of people, are we equally evil? Give me a break here, will you?


Lastly, if my closing paragraph has so much "worthy of responding to", why did you limit your response to a lame attempt at sarcasm (pregnancy reference)? Do analyze it and tell me how I am wrong and you are right. If you need to bring up a scripture, so be it, but translate it into some human language if you can please.

[StormAU]

Originally Posted by V-G

Reading a kid's science book brings more wisdom than the Bible ever will. The book is usually well written and the arguments are well structured. As you grow up you start reading more important books, but never do you even need to read the Bible to be wise.

Those who think like a child ....... those who think like a man ...... pretty important statements aren't they. I'll read the whole thread later but I just think it needs to be said that instead of outright challenging peoples beliefs and using the CAPS lock like you have, it would be nice to have a constructive discussion with you about this.

This type of discussion should not be about winning, it should be about understanding.

[V-G]

Originally Posted by StormAU

Those who think like a child ....... those who think like a man ...... pretty important statements aren't they. I'll read the whole thread later but I just think it needs to be said that instead of outright challenging peoples beliefs and using the CAPS lock like you have, it would be nice to have a constructive discussion with you about this.

This type of discussion should not be about winning, it should be about understanding.

What is wrong with using CAPS? Hmm... don't be too soft, this is no the thread for it.

Understanding, an interesting point, are you REALLY interested in understanding my position? Or are you only interested in me understanding yours? Please think about this and pardon my outright cynicism, I will gladly talk to you as long as we are clear that this is NOT about you trying to "convert" me. If it is, just give up now save yourself some time. If, on the other hand, you are interested in understanding, please post your questions.