"Kuchma Responsible for Disappearance of Journalist"

[steve_vlasenko]

Ukrainian president Leonid Kuchma is directly responsible for the
disappearance and possibly the gruesome murder of investigative
journalist Georgy Gongadze, said opposition leader Oleksander Moroz,
leader of the Ukrainian Socialist Party, this weekend in Budapest. De
Volkskrant has access to a secret recording which the opposition
party says was made in the president's office, and in which Kuchma
can be heard ordering Gongadze's kidnapping...


The transcript of the tape.
http://www.pravda.com.ua.

Associated Press, 28 November 2000

Were you aware of this?
What do you think?

Vlas

[This message has been edited by steve.vlasenko (edited 04 December 2000).]

[steve_vlasenko]

An English-language translation of selected tape
episodes follows.

Episode 1
- Hello.
- Hello.
- You give me this same one at Ukrainska Pravda and
... we will start to decide what to do with him. He's
simply gone too far already.
- Started a case.
- Wha-?
- Started a case... (undecipherable)
- Good
- (undecipherable)
- No, I don't necessarily need a case. ... Ukrainska
Pravda, well, this is completely already, blyad,
insolence. Bastard, blya. The Georgian, Georgian,
blin.
- Gongadze, or what?
- Gongadze.
- Well, someone finances him...
- Well, he actively works with this, with Moroz, with
Grani (Web site). I will on Saturday him... with
Matvienko.
- Maybe people's deputies here to court, let the
lawyers bring him to court.
- This goes to the prosecutor, right?
- No, Let Kravchenko... (undecipherable)
- (undecipherable)
- It's just, blya, ... there is some kind of limit,
son-of-a-*****, blya. ...
- Deport him, bliat, to Georgia and throw him out
there f*** him.
- Drive him out to Georgia and throw him there.
- the Chechens should steal him. ...

Episode 2
- So that I don't forget, there's this one Gongadze...
- I think I heard this kind of surname.
- Well, bastard, blya, final limit
- Gongadze. He already came our way somewhere...
- Wha-?
- He passed by somewhere. Looking for him.
- That means, what he constantly writes in some kind
of "Ukrainska some kind of Pravda", he pushes it into
the Internet, understand. Well who, someone finances
him
- (undecipherable)
- But the main thing he needs to be pushed back.
Volodya says the Chechens should steal him and drive
him to Chechnya to f*** himself and ask for a ransom.
- Eh, we'll just somewhere him...
- Eh, these sort of people (laughter) totally major...
- Don't spread anything.
- Well, and drive him out to Georgia, and that's it.
- Meaning, in the first place, will we be giving
(official) permission, not permission, that head of
the rayon division..., oh, you remember, the one that
in Chernihiv oblast said: "Let the president pay you "
- Yeh-yeh-yeh.
- They've already released the vice head. They started
a criminal case against him. Meaning on 165 this is
for official service violations, and 185. So I think
that he's here. And this week we'll him
- Yeh. Yeh. Let's
- We'll also show who to say what to.

Episode 3
- On Gongadze there is besides that that he works
together with Moroz.
- For Moroz he's been writing there in his Grani still
from the very summer. How does he finance (?)...
- Well, this is the type of garbage. I wouldn't be
surprised that with them there with the socialists
there are ties there. ... Well, we'll take care of
things with them. I think this is...
- There are outlines. This is Medvechuk and Surkis?
- This is that there is a tie between them this is...
- No, that's how once...
- I remember this game near Kievskie Vedomosti
(newspaper). Surkis, blya, why do we need a Jew, blya.
- Come on, why do you need a Jew
- And now I read some of those same conversations of
theirs
- Eh, it's he that posts them. That was their method
then. And it still exists. They're creating a problem
there, later, as if, they go to a person and help and
later it turns out that that person is dependent on
them. And it is in this way that they here... This is
a big spectacle at such a level, I don't know, maybe,
national. They played it out and it made hits... Eh,
this is this kind of thing. ... And, this, maybe, is
all.

Episode 4
- I would like to ask you about this kind of form. I
mean to use, so that I don't forget.
- This Georgian.
- I'm, we're working.
- Meaning... -
- I'm telling you, drive him out, throw out. Give him
to the Chechens. (undecipherable) and then a ransom.
- We'll think it over. We're do it in such a way, so
that
- Meaning drive him out, undress him, blya, leave him
without his pants, let him sit there.
- I'd do it simply, blya, they told me about it today.
We're learning the situation: where he's walking,
which ways he walks. We've got someone sitting there
connected up. We have to study it just a little bit,
we'll do it. The team I have is a fighting one, such
eagles, everything you want, they'll do. Meaning this
is the present.
- For some reason you're not saying anything about
Gongadze?
- To stay quiet (undecipherable)
- Honest. Well I'm reporting to you. There we made
somewhat of a mistake.
- There he's got a team headed by the last name they
told me, blya.
- Meaning he wrote a complaint to the general
prosecutor. Well, I think...
- Who.
- Him.
- I made a bit of a mistake here. Well now I think,
why did I make a mistake. Now I'll tell you. I went to
the deputy head of running the city of Kyiv
Opanasenko. I think that Opanasenko, I think that the
group, it's closed. So Opanasenko through his to get
to the bottom of what kind of machine this is and
wrote Potobenko, that is, a complaint.
- Who, Opanasenko?
- No, Gongadze.- And here he gives the numbers that
were destroyed a year ago. I am changing the plan here
a little because... I want to get rid of that
Opanasenko. My doubts were over when they reported to
me all the way in Kirgizia (?) that Opanasenko is
interested in the numbers so I said wait, so that
it...with the numbers I'll do it. I simply, so that it, I
mean, so that it doesn't work out anywhere. Well,
He'll be here tomorrow. He'll sign that this could be
like a settlement for such matters.
- Well, so that it doesn't go, because they are
throwing dirt into Russia through the Internet. You
know, into the Internet through Russia.
- Clear.
- I'm not letting Gongadze out. Simply for us a
question has arisen I also it... Are there indeed
already contacts... And there were... armed
surveillance I want to study up on his contacts. What
it...
- To know if there isn't a team there. They named some
kind of surnames there. They're scribbling this trash
- There are three of them.
- We have them. We have them all.
- Well I want to start with him. Well and this... the
general (prosecutor's office) will react. There are no
numbers, I don't know.
- And what connection the General (Prosecutor's
Office) to Gongadze?
- Well their declaration is there. This is official.
- well, and so what
- the declaration is official.
- Well why does every sh** have to write to the
general prosecutor,
- Leonid Danylovych...
- There you go just send it to the rayon prosecutor.
- I don't know what the prosecutor there will say.
This is the prosecutor...
- I bid you all the best.

Episode 5
- Well, Leonid Danylovych, what's new?
- About Gongadze
- ...

Episode 6- How should I tell you... Kravchenko
promised to take care of it
- How should I tell you (undecipherable) The Georgian
embassy made an official announcement and made an
anonymous call which was in the embassy that the
Moscow rayon needs to be searched and Volkov is
dealing with this matter, Kravchenko and... one can't
place politics... undermine it... in order to
undermine... this is also not tolerable...
- The ambassador has to be summoned
- Me too... and make some kind of notation or warning,
or have a conversation.
- A call has to be made... and get rid of him to hell
this kind of ambassador, blin.
- (on the phone) Koval, you need to be removed. Were
you taking care of things there with the Georgian
embassy?
- (answer) We will now start taking care of things
- And get him here, blya, Let him make a reply,
otherwise I'll call Shevarnadze to call him back the
hell with him.
- Okay- And say, that I'll call Shevarnadze, to take
him out the hell with him.
- okay, okay, I'm calling on him right now.

Episode 7
- Listen, now they just showed me newspapers, blyat,
all these, blyat, that are published. Well, Hrysha
Omelchenko is continuing to put out a paper in
Kremenchug (pause) Well, what are you bullsh**ing. Eh
no, right now the 15th of September he put out a
paper. (pause) And I'm telling you, September 15 put
out a fresh newspaper. Svoboda (newpaper) blya, is
being published, and you're still about that again...
Well there, well there, there are such caricatures
there, and also insults, blya totally on the
president. (pause) So then you invite Yulia. F*** your
mother, you invite Yulia, and ask: "dear one, what are
you ***** blya doing? Do you want for us to blya you
blya completely or what." And say: "why are you
financing Omelchenko, why are you doing that-that."
You don't know the method of your job or what, how
that's done all over the world. So if they aren't one
f***ing bit afraid of you. F*** your mother, well why
are you this way. Why should you be feared? It is our
service that they are afraid of. ... It was I who
appointed you. So that's why let's go.

Episode 8
- Listening. And where are you looking. In Poltava
oblast in Kremenchug this bastard Omelchenko is
publishing such a newspaper, blya, simply incredible.
With caricatures, blya, they're throwing dirt on the
president with their publications. So therefore, the
security service and the prosecutor can't start a
criminal case together. So there, these lawyers looked
at this, and say that there are grounds to start such
a case. Where's the Service. Well yes then why aren't
they reporting now. They bring me this newspaper...
Newspapers, blya they deliver to me here, while the
service doesn't report one f***ing thing. (pause) And
that's what's the most interesting. I'll look who
participates there, in this same. All these
anti-presidential correspondents.
... Yeh, and that includes Korobova of Grani. F***
your mother, imagine, this *****, blya, this
prostitute (who?) of newspapers into which he took
her. ... That Gongadze, blya, good-bye-good riddance.
- It's time with them all...
- The level of influence of the Verkhovna Rada is 4
percent, the level of influence of the Cabinet of
Ministers or the premier 0...
- On mass media?
- Well yeh.
- Understand, which it is counting on so that God
forbid a finger isn't pointed at it
- ...
- Well, of course.
- ...

Episode 11
- Leonid Danilovych, I want to report. I think, that I
wrestled out all of his structures competely, yes. And
now the team is muffling the matter. Meaning
everything, it seems, we took out which is his.
- The fund Zlahoda, yeh?
- everything is there, everything. I looked there.
- Well an aside from the newspaper Tovarish they also
have this new newspaper?
- Leonid Danylovych, well, we will have all the
structures. Well, and now that gang, that distributed
leaflets from Holovaty?
- Yeh.
- Meaning, the day before yesterday he ended up all
the way in Sumy oblast, the one that distributed. And
they gave it to him there in such a way (laugher). And
he yells: "It was Holovaty that me " (laugher) And he
came home, and there, meaning, the dacha was occupied,
and the door burned
- Whose?
- His (both laughing) Understood.
- ...
- And he distributed one or....
- We him... the sh** came out again with a new packet.
That same day 15 cops... And he was with 3 guards.
Later he came out without anybody, they put him in a
car. When they went forward... "I won't anymore, this
is Holovaty. Who's your chief? Who's your chief? I'll
be a witness. Well, to keep it short...
- ... (undecipherable) I have such a subdivision,
their methods, they have no moral principles, they
have nothing. So that God forbid... So meaning they
have nothing. So that simply means me. I have a group
and they're beginning to muffle. Well I with your
permission will then talk things over with Azarov.
- I have an example, that I should also participate.
- Azarov also has an example.
- Well, something could get mixed up for us. But we
are continuing to work.
- Is it interesting with them?
- What could they have interesting there...

Editor's note: English-language grammatical accuracy
has been sacrificed in this translation in order to
attempt to get across the tone of the original
conversation.
From KP News

What do you think?

Take care

Vlas



[This message has been edited by steve.vlasenko (edited 04 December 2000).]

[Nonson]

One must assume that the journalist(?) was possibly an agent provocateur, or was incredibly stupid. Question. Why was he messing around in Ukraine politics? Peace

[johnstruthers]

Steve, I appreciate your taking the time to furnish this to us. Nonson, what is wrong with your head?

How was this recorded? Whoever did it is in the greatest danger. This is a major scandal. These old apparatchiks just hate the free press. I hope this gets wide distribution. There's enough there to FORCE the prosecutors to at least investigate and come up with some answers.

Thanks again for taking the time to post this, Steve.

Best regards,
John Struthers

[Nonson]

Thanks John. You prove my point exactly. The old boys are far too dangerous for lowly journalists to be messing with in such a way. Whats za matta for u?

[johnstruthers]

You're right, of course. The guy is knowingly playing with fire. But Kuchma is out of bounds to take him out of play. The tradition is to scare the hell out of him first by nailing him with trumped-up charges and threats to his well being and confiscation of his computer. Acing the dude brings the discussion to a new level. It also antagonizes the Fifth Estate, which gains fans every time it has to go "samizdat" to get out the message. As both strategy and tactic it ain't smooth. And to get coopted by a recording from your own office means he has forgotten who really runs the joint: The Security Services. I'd bet it originated with them, regardless of who takes the credit/gets blamed. These kinds of discussions are supposed to take place out of earshot, or at least with the "pink noise" generator on, so it can't be picked up. Kuchma must have started to believe his own bull, and thought he was living in a democracy or something.

So dats whatsa damatta wid me.

[johnstruthers]

On the other hand, it looks like a putup job by Moroz. Gongadze was a victim of convenience. I suggest that it would be too far out of bounds for Kuchma to have directed it. He would have stuck with the tried and true, as indicated above, and which his tapped conversation seems to support. Rough him up, scare him but don't kill him, that's business as usual. It's all too convenient that Moroz found this information in his hands. The timeline favors a setup: First we get Kuchma to seem to say something incriminating, then we ice Gongadze, then we release the tape. Phooey.