Ukraine Ends Death Penalty

[johnstruthers]

Kuchma just signed legislation abolishing the death penalty. I would say that this, at least in legal form, is another sign that Ukraine is more civilized than the United States.

[andrewblow]

John - I accept that this is good news and a definite move forward, but for someone who has shown such balanced arguments before - I think that you are (using English coloquials) 'pulling my leg' / 'got your tongue in your cheek'.

My sister travels to Ukraine tomorrow, but I don't think that the abolition of the death penalty will prove to her that Ukraine is more civilised that the USA, on BALANCE - even taking legal matters into consideration!

[johnstruthers]

Andrew, you are observant indeed, but I offer a yes-and-no answer. Ukraine has agreed to something that moves it in the direction of joining the rest of the civilized world on equal moral footing by this symbolic gesture. The US, on the other hand, appears prepared to elect to the Presidency a man who governed the state that has executed the greatest number, and does so weekly.

The obstinacy of the United States in refusing to abide by a number of international conventions, human rights glaringly among them, indicates a willingness to define civilization by its own terms, which seems to include the notion that as long as there is a McDonalds on every corner and the Dow Jones is ascendant, then all is well with civilization.

Ukraine has problems. But it abandoned its worst features the day it declared independence. Ukrainians place a greater weight on the things that lead to mutual understanding and respect, in my opinion: hospitality, genuine generosity of spirit, willingness to go much out of the way to help, and a willingness to examine the past's errors in building a future. The other attributes include patience and hope. Where these attributes exist in America they are found in small, unaffected populations, and are degenerating in the population at large.

I'd be willing to stack Ukraine up against the US in the long term, i.e., that where the subject of more or less civilized is broached, that Ukraine will be on the "more" side of the ledger.

[This message has been edited by johnstruthers (edited 01 April 2000).]

[beata]

I would agree with John...I think it was a great step forward Ukraine made. Abolishing the death penalty is one of the main things every civilized society should do. Maybe US is civilized in the means of finance, technology...but it surely lacks a lot in the field of human rights. I've read some interesting reports on it and believe me - it sounds so unbelievable. The American government condemns China for offending the basic human rights, but at the same time, it does the same. Just to name the death penalty, the abuse of force by police...

[andrewblow]

Thanks John and Beata -
I hear what you are saying....and there is much truth in it, but my contention is that you are (as it were) trying to build a boathouse on ONE pole, whereas many poles are required to make the foundations stable. You know that I love Ukraine and my heart is with the wide circle of friends that I am privileged to have in Chernivtsi, but that does not stop me being harrassed by armed police every 100 Km., or save my hard-working business friends from corruption from every quarter. It does not stop children being utterly abandoned in orphanages, where outside humanitarian aid is required just to get soap, or toilet paper. On the one hand YES - I agree the President has taken a great leap forward - but when will he commit to raising the standard of civilised living for his people?
I am soon to be enjoying another trip to Ukraine and to experience the wonderful friendship and selfless giving of people with almost nothing, but that generous spirit is in spite of the general malaise of the Ukrainian government, not because of it.
I guess this then brings us to the question "Who determines 'civilisation' - the government, or the people?" and I would appreciate your thoughts on that.

[Johnson123]

Hahahaha,

We like the death penalty here in Texas and were keeping it thanks. If you think making the death penalty illegal anyplace makes you civilized your wrong.
I love the way some folks tend to believe they lead the world in human rights but continue to have mass,criminal,financial and moral problems that lend no logical ear to what they are crying for.
The european union is just what it wishes to be. A european leader and bechmark for europe. Never think that the EU standards will in fact be us standards as we do not wish to follow in your footsteps but rather lead through the voice of our people and there votes.

REX xx

[johnstruthers]

Andrew, the question, "Is it the government or the people that determine a civilization" is especially answerable in the instance of Ukraine. We know, first, that governments take the rap for societies, e.g., Germans are very nice but they assume the blame for Hitler. Let's digress to corruption, though: It is an effective means for the transfer of wealth from haves to have-nots. There is no reason on earth why any Ukrainian official should assist any western businessman without sharing in his profits. In America, government officials are not usually in the middle of business transactions. In Ukraine, where there is a holdover from Soviet times, they all are. It reflects on the times, not on Ukrainian government nor on the people. The other things you cite are the consequence of poverty, and its complement, poverty of spirit, not essential lack of character.

Either you are in favor of the toilet paper factory going through privatisation, in which case you must be willing to pay western prices for it, or you favor government-made toilet paper, and the deficit of same that will always be there. In either case, the question is, "Who pays the bill?" Andrew, you're a smart and decent man, but I ask you again to set aside a bundle of predispositions in your view of Ukraine. The easy answers you toss out are absurd. Of course, Kuchma wants a corruption-free, market-driven country. Of course, he is "committed" to it, as well. Now how do we get there from here? You are a foreigner, with greater resources, or at least representing those who provide the resources. You're a target for corruption and resentment, to many. To many others, you represent the very good things you stand for. You may see more of the former than the latter. Ukraine has nowhere to go but up, and you may be helping that process. But those things that stand in your way are not measures of anything but the residue from a system that collapsed, or deserted, depending on your point of view. This requires a level of acceptance that doesn't judge. It is not fair to the circumstance.