Ukraine Image Abroad?

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Hannia

I have been to Poland before and after EU and IMO Ukraine resembles Poland as much now as before.
...
The current Polish unemployment figures are @ appx 14% , down from the the 18%+ previous to Poland's acceptance into EU. ....

Hannia, I am afraid that the economic disparity between the economy of Poland and Ukraine gets wider and wider unfortunately (I think it is not good for Poland as well). The current world crisis is barely visible in Poland till now while Ukraine suffers immensely.
The unemployment rate is ca. 10 and not 14 % at the moment but the real unemployment is considerably lower because Poles were used to gray economy even at communist time. They try to hide both their earnings and employment from the Ministry of Finance’s eyesight. The most of us will never employ a company for renovating our apartment but we will find one of two skilled workers, sometimes Ukrainian, to do the job. I do not say it is like it should be but you can usually expect that the real economic situation in my country is better than its statistical representation. This dodging is a kind of good buffer both prior and after the economic transformation. We value Ukrainian migrant workers but we do not like to say this to our direct neighbors on the block.
The major difference between typical behaviour of Poles and Ukrainians nowadays is that Poles are not afraid to openly criticize any authority from the bottom to the top of government ladder. They have started to learn it effectively already at communist times. A policeman on the road, a clerk in the office or a politician do not enjoy high social respect. If they get money under the table from time to time, they usually are molested by the “sponsors” and not the other way round.

[Albatross]

Hello Zbyszek,

Good to see you here. I'm pleased to hear that Poland resists the crisis so well. I'm not qualified to comment on the differences between Ukraine and Poland. I do know however that in Ukraine even a larger part of economic activity takes place out of sight of authorities. Unofficial salaries (for normal work, nothing related to criminal activity) are often much much higher than the official salary. If you see what people in Kiev spend in shops, you wouldn't think that they're poor. So based on that experience, i'd say that MichaelPB exaggerates somewhat.

[Serhii]

Time to time I watch TV Polonia to learn the situation there from inside. Wiadomosci and other information programs are honest and objective ( unlike MickaelB and C). I wish the situation in Poland were good , but it isn’t so. Watch your own TV , panowie , otherwise you look funny with your suggestians…

Albatross, Zbyshek, Hannia … I send you my warm hello ! - sorry for being here very seldom in your nice company.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Hannia

I have been to Poland before and after EU and IMO Ukraine resembles Poland as much now as before.

If you have visited Poland and Ukraine as a tourist from for example US or Canada, then it's quite natural that you got such an impression, but things like statistics or direction of travel of illegal workers shows a completely different image.

Originally Posted by Albatross

I do know however that in Ukraine even a larger part of economic activity takes place out of sight of authorities. Unofficial salaries (for normal work, nothing related to criminal activity) are often much much higher than the official salary. If you see what people in Kiev spend in shops, you wouldn't think that they're poor. So based on that experience, i'd say that MichaelPB exaggerates somewhat.

Well, I'm simply making comments basing on the information I have, coming from statistical date and real-world conversations with Ukrainians, both paint a rather bleak picture. For example there's a index called HDI - Human Developement Index, and according to the HDI, Ukraine is one of the worst places to live in Europe.

List of countries by Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ukraine: 0.786 points
Poland: 0.875
Germany: 0.940
Switzerland: 0.955

We could also single out the factor of life expectancy, which is a "solid", "biological" factor:

(data taken from https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...orld-factbook/)

Ukraine: 68.25 years
Poland: 75.63
Germany: 79.26
Switzerland: 80.85

Originally Posted by Serhii

Time to time I watch TV Polonia to learn the situation there from inside. Wiadomosci and other information programs are honest and objective ( unlike MickaelB and C). I wish the situation in Poland were good , but it isn’t so. Watch your own TV , panowie , otherwise you look funny with your suggestians…

1. What exactly is your accusation when it comes to my objectivity and/or honesty? What exactly do you find false? IMO if you could find a specific fault you would write about, you complain in abstract terms because you simply don't like the truth.

2. As for Poland, so far our country is showing resistance to crisis, but of course resistance if not the same as immunity.

Polish economy grows in 1Q, outshining neighbors - Yahoo! Finance

"Poland's economy grew by 0.8 percent in the first three months of 2009 compared to the same quarter a year earlier, the state statistical office said Friday, more evidence that the country is weathering the global recession better than its neighbors."

BTW it does not mean that the situation is good in every aspect, I'd say that the overall economical condition of Poland is average, with the exception of crisis-resistance, which seems to be really high.

3. As for Ukraine:


FT.com / Europe - Ukraine GDP down by 20%

"Gross domestic production in Ukraine, one of the world’s most recession-battered economies, contracted by 20 per cent in the first quarter of 2009," - I think that a 20% decrease is something really, really dramatic, especially since it was a poor country before the crisis.

[Serhii]

Many people even here give very vivid examples to you ( see above ) , but you can not see anything except your untie Ukrainian mantras. All facts you give here have complicated explanations. To say anything you have to go farther than Peremyshl or Lviv and analyze much more statistics. Yes, we have problems and they are very serious. But even now it would be very funny to say to someone about mighty Poland here in my industrial region . People will just laugh in return. And again I can watch Polish TV and am absolutely free in Polish to understand what is going on there.

So panie, gulaj lasem bendzesz zdrawy and perhaps it will heel you from your serious phobias towards Ukraine

[Hannia]

Michael,

As per usual you manage to back up your information w/ questionable documentation.

Most of the HDI data used for the report you make reference to is derived largely from 2005 or earlier,
thus indicating an HDI for 2005.

Don't get too cocky. Poland entered the EU with a very weak hand in 2004. To date there are still the old
rules for the old membership and the new rules for the new membership.

Keep in mind that there but for fortune goes Poland and take a lesson from Zbyszek, who understands this well
and always presents himself as a true Polish gentleman.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Serhii

Many people even here give very vivid examples to you ( see above ) , but you can not see anything except your untie Ukrainian mantras.

In case you did not notice, I'm the only person who have quoted any kind of hard numbers, who gave any kind of objective evidence.

Yes, we have problems and they are very serious.

That's basically what I was writing, it looks like you are agreeing and disagreeing at the same time.

But even now it would be very funny to say to someone about mighty Poland here in my industrial region.

For that matter, in my last post I've the word "average" to describe Poland's overall economical power. "Average" does't sound anything like "mighty" to me.

So panie, gulaj lasem bendzesz zdrawy and perhaps it will heel you from your serious phobias towards Ukraine

Do you think that the UNDP (makers of HDI), CIA or FT also suffer from "serious phobias toward Ukraine"?
Try to look objectively at yourself and see the rather obvious immaturity of your position.

Originally Posted by Hannia

Michael,

As per usual you manage to back up your information w/ questionable documentation.

Most of the HDI data used for the report you make reference to is derived largely from 2005 or earlier,
thus indicating an HDI for 2005.

Ok... and what does it change? 2005 was a mere 4 years ago, it's not that much time, and so far nobody has referenced any evidence showing that Ukraine made some kind of noticeable progress during those 4 years, while I've posted evidence claiming that it has recently lost 20% of it's GDP.

Originally Posted by Kathy

By all indicators, Poland's economy is stronger than that of Ukraine's. Its GDP is two and a half times higher, its unemployment rate is lower, the number of people living in poverty is less than half that of Ukraine, its government debt is lower. So on all those counts, I don't think Michael's facts can be disputed.

I think Poland's government functions much better than does Ukraine's. Its politicians are less corrupt, and appear to be working for the country rather than their own wealth. I never read about Polish oligarchs, the way we read about Ukrainian and Russian oligarchs.

I agree, although I must say that IMO while the Polish politicians and officials are less corrupt than Ukrainian ones, they are still corrupt to a sizeable extent.

I think it's the same with economy, I remember how I have met a Ukrainian girl from Kryvyi Rog, who was not a illegal worker but a very good college student who came to Poland for some conference and she told me "it would be very good if [economy] was in Ukraine as it is in Poland". My first thought was something like "ouch, if THIS is very good for them, then matters are very, very hard in Ukraine".

Where I would fault Michael, and has been pointed out by Zbyszek, is in Micheal's characterization of Ukrainians as seemingly subhuman, as, in his words "savages" and brutes. I think that is an insult to the majority of Ukrainians, who are cultured, and to those who scrambling to put food on the table and to just survive.

I think it should be noted that I've simply informed about the existence of a certain stereotype about Ukrainians, I've proven this (it's existence) in the post #17 in this thread, quoting a few different sources.

Then I have said that I do not believe in this stereotype, but unfortunately there is a small grain of truth here. Then I wrote:

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

When writing about "grain of truth", I meant for example the "liberal" stance of Ukrainians toward mass murders and people who commited them, who are often thought of as heroes by the Ukrainians.

I don't deny that the "Ukrainian butcher" stereotype is unjust and insulting, but at the same can't fail to notice that:

1) The stereotype exists due to horrific war crimes commited by Ukrainian nationalists upon Polish civilians.
2) The respect that many Ukrainians have toward those nationalists suggests that there is some kind of acceptance toward such deeds among Ukrainians.