Ukraine Image Abroad?

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

Comment on the last example: in Poland there is a folk belief that a dog with black palate is a potentially agressive, bad dog - so the "black palate" example provided by Tyma contains is not only linked with suspicion of agresiveness, but is also a degrading comparison with animals.

The "black palate" stereotype is so ridiculous that it is not even worth mentioning. It sounds like old prejudice saying that Jews abduct Christian kids, kill them and make the kosher bread out of their meat. Only old and primitive people can say this in my country. I am sure younger people are quickly forgetting this stupidity.
I met some Ukrainians in my country and I hereupon certify that they have one head, two arms and two legs, their girls are charming and in most cases it is impossible to distinguish them from our girls.
I remember an old communist-time joke about "the grain of truth". Q: is it true that they give motor-bikes in Moscow's Red Square for free all the time? Answer from Radio Erewan: Yes, it is correct basically but 1. Bicycles and not motorbikes 2. Not in Moscow but in Beijing 3. They do not give them but they steal them.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Zbyszek

The "black palate" stereotype is so ridiculous that it is not even worth mentioning.

If it exists, it's worth mentioning, IMO. Kathy experessed doubt in existence of "Ukrainian savage" stereotype in Poland, so I presented proof.

I met some Ukrainians in my country and I hereupon certify that they have one head, two arms and two legs, their girls are charming and in most cases it is impossible to distinguish them from our girls.

True.

I remember an old communist-time joke about "the grain of truth". Q: is it true that they give motor-bikes in Moscow's Red Square for free all the time? Answer from Radio Erewan: Yes, it is correct basically but 1. Bicycles and not motorbikes 2. Not in Moscow but in Beijing 3. They do not give them but they steal them.

When writing about "grain of truth", I meant for example the "liberal" stance of Ukrainians toward mass murders and people who commited them, who are often thought of as heroes by the Ukrainians.

[Albatross]

Reading the posts of Svizzera and MichaelPB, it's not really clear what they describe. It seems to be an odd mixture of their own opinion about Ukraine and Ukraine's public image in their respective countries. For instance, to claim that in the common perception, a distinction is being made between "deep poverty" and "very low wages", or between "a high incapability [of the government] to make proper decisions" and a "non citizen oriented government" is rather strange. In the public eye these things are one and the same. So MPB seems to have a desire to make his list of negatives on Ukraine as long as possible.

A few additional comments,

Deep poverty / very low wages: In Ukraine, wages are very much dependent on where you live, your education level and field of work. Many people in the big cities actually have pretty decent wages, especially if you consider the "unofficial" salary as well. Sure, the middle class is being hurt by the current crisis, but that's a global circumstance. Pensioners and other people on low fixed income are having a rough time. Same goes for people living in rural areas.

Instability: I'd say the "very high instability" Svizzera / MPB are referring to, is relative. Ukraine is not at war with its neighbours nor is there a civil war going on. Also the situation is not even nearly as bad as for instance in Georgia, where the government never had any real authority over large areas of the country.

Corruption / ineffective government: No doubt corruption in Ukraine is huge and an obstacle for improving the situation. The intricate links between politics and business are unhealthy. Also the absence of an independent judiciary is a real problem. Despite all that, a middle class has emerged in Ukraine's cities and many city folks can now afford a fairly decent lifestyle.

Ukraine has some serious problems. Those problems contribute to its (economic) underachievement, but it's not a country of horrors.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Albatross

Reading the posts of Svizzera and MichaelPB, it's not really clear what they describe. It seems to be an odd mixture of their own opinion about Ukraine and Ukraine's public image in their respective countries.

Don't know for sure about Svizzera, bur I wrote about the public image in the list itself, with private and public opinion in different other places.

For instance, to claim that in the common perception, a distinction is being made between "deep poverty" and "very low wages", or between "a high incapability [of the government] to make proper decisions" and a "non citizen oriented government" is rather strange. In the public eye these things are one and the same. So MPB seems to have a desire to make his list of negatives on Ukraine as long as possible.

Well, I've largely copied Svizerra's structure because I wanted to show which points are roughly the sameand which are different - that's why at the end I wrote some short comments on the differences.

As for the lack of distinction in the common perception, you are correct about it and I was aware of it, look what I wrote at #3 - "basically the sequel to #1".

Deep poverty / very low wages: In Ukraine, wages are very much dependent on where you live, your education level and field of work. Many people in the big cities actually have pretty decent wages, especially if you consider the "unofficial" salary as well. Sure, the middle class is being hurt by the current crisis, but that's a global circumstance. Pensioners and other people on low fixed income are having a rough time. Same goes for people living in rural areas.

Of course, there are always different groups, there are poor people in rich countries and rich people in poor countries, I think it's self-explanatory.

Instability: I'd say the "very high instability" Svizzera / MPB are referring to, is relative. Ukraine is not at war with its neighbours nor is there a civil war going on. Also the situation is not even nearly as bad as for instance in Georgia, where the government never had any real authority over large areas of the country.

True, "very high" is a too severe in this case.

Ukraine has some serious problems. Those problems contribute to its (economic) underachievement, but it's not a country of horrors.

My personal opinion and the public image in Poland is very similiar to your opinion - we think that Ukraine is a very bad place to live, but it's "very bad as for a European country", it's not a "country of horrors" like some unfortunate countries around the planet are.

[Lvivske]

You Poles have always dreamed up such rubbish, what else is new?

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Lvivske

You Poles have always dreamed up such rubbish, what else is new?

What exactly do you mean by rubbish? Just because you don't like something, it does't mean it's untrue.

[Hannia]

I have been to Poland before and after EU and IMO Ukraine resembles Poland as much now as before.

The current Polish unemployment figures are @ appx 14% , down from the the 18%+ previous to Poland's acceptance into EU. The unemployed on govt dole are not figured in the new number. The customs people certainly still have their hands out and at night Polish prostitutes can still be seen in the better hotel bars.

PS> Michael, if Poland decides to tax Ukrainian migratory agrarian workers, earning very low wages, and even the more skilled workers, like the the Northern Koreans working the shipyards in Gdansk, earning half what natives would earn, it would just create more economic chaos than it could handle.