Russian Ukraine2

[Turbin]

Answer to Pan MichaelB_PL

Why do you call this pseudo-historic? It is a known fact that Russia was a Mongol colony for about 250 years. Think about it: many generations of Russians lived and died as Mongol subjects without ever experiencing life without Mongol rule.

Do you really can tell me that you honestly believe this did't leave a trace on Russian culture?

Think about a situation in which you are born as a Mongol subject, and so was your father and his father and grandfather, knowing nothing but being ruled by the Mongols. Do you seriously think it would not leave a trace?

Many Poles, Latvians and Estonians were colonized by Germans for hundreds of years, Spaniards by Arabs, Greeks and Hungarians by Turks, Finns by Swedes etc. I don't see how Mongols are fundamentally more evil or how their culture is more or less brutal than German or Arab.

Also few lessons in history: Russia only paid tribute to the Mongols who unlike Germans or Spaniards did not try to force the subjects of their colonies by genocide and assimilation to accept their own religion and culture.

In the end the Russians not only liberated themselves from Mongol yoke but became the most powerful state in Eastern Europe (something I believe is the real case of Polish bitterness against Moscovy)


This is a desciption of how Moscow Duchy became dominant: it became dominant as the Mongol's main tax collector.

I will not comment on this, but I would like to know what do you think and feel about this.

I think that Ivan Kalita was Russian Kazimir III the Great and Dmitry Donskoi was Russian Vladislav II Jagiello.

I'm sorry, I must've been mistaken, maybe it was't rape... but why was Yanukovych in jail twice?

He was sentenced for street fight and for an attempted robbery (both sentences later suspended) at the age of 17.
Not something unsusual for a teenager from a poor working family who's mother died when he was 2 years old.

However, the guy managed later to finish university and become an engeener.

[StasUA]

Correction: he was arrested for rape-attempt and then charges dropped because of his criminal connections.

He was in jail for robbing hats from people in the park as well as for stealing jewelry from girls on the streets.
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Few days ago he punched Minister of Transport in the face for allowing trains with Yuschenko's supporters to enter Kyiv.

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Turbin, are you Russian?

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally posted by Turbin
Answer to Pan MichaelB_PL
[...]
Many Poles, Latvians and Estonians were colonized by Germans for hundreds of years, Spaniards by Arabs, Greeks and Hungarians by Turks, Finns by Swedes etc. I don't see how Mongols are fundamentally more evil or how their culture is more or less brutal than German or Arab.

Yes, the modern Mongols are normal people (I've met some personally).

Also few lessons in history: Russia only paid tribute to the Mongols

I'm not sure about this: I thought that only Novogorod's submission was limited to paying tribute to the Mongols while Muscovy was much more closely enslaved.

who unlike Germans or Spaniards did not try to force the subjects of their colonies by genocide and assimilation to accept their own religion and culture.

True, Germans and Spaniards commited genocide much more often than the Mongols.

In the end the Russians not only liberated themselves from Mongol yoke but became the most powerful state in Eastern Europe (something I believe is the real case of Polish bitterness against Moscovy)

You know, I think we Poles would be actually bitter about Russia being the strongest state in Eastern Europe if we would see Russians actually getting something from it.
In Poland we see Russia as a country which is capable of good military effort, but we also it as a country which is continually failing to provide it's people with prosperity,freedom and peace,quite the contrary, Russian model of state and civilisation seems to be bent on complicating the life of both it's own people and their neighbours, by war,internal opression, mass murder, etc.

There is a bit bitterness in Poles about Russia getting the upperhand over Poland, but it's a minor feeling,not the dominant one.
The dominant attitude/feeling of Polish people about Russians is not bitterness and not even hate, but some kind of let's say shock,disgust and repulsion combined with some fear.
This is, Russians are seen as a "Ivan Grozny" personality nation,kind of mentally unstable and very (self)destructive, which easily inflicts massive carnage upon itself (or upon it's neighbours hence the fear element in our attitude).
The common Pole is NOT really thinking "oh how I hate those Russians because of X", where X could be Russia being bigger and militarily stronger country or occupation of Poland or even Katyn or whatever else.
The common Pole is thinking mainly: "OMG these Russians,they are doing their psychotic stuff again, they are so ****ed up, I hope they will stay away from me and Poland"

From our(mine) point of view,if the whole Russia and the Russian nation as whole could be personified, then it should personified as Ivan Grozny.

(from http://www.russiansabroad.com/russian_history_25.html)

"Although apparently intelligent and energetic, Ivan suffered from bouts of paranoia and depression, and his rule was punctuated by acts of extreme violence"

This is how we see Russia actually- we do feel some hate, but we feel much more of some kind of shock or repulsion.




Michael

[Turbin]

Correction: he was arrested for rape-attempt and then charges dropped because of his criminal connections

Don't lie Stasik, I know its you old habit on this forum, but still...

Criminal connections of 17 years old orphan ? He must've been one powerful criminal to convince Soviet court to drop his charges...LoL


Anyway criminal charges of Timoshenko is something much more intresting.

Turbin, are you Russian?

By blood I'm mostly ethnic Ukrainian with Zaporozhian Cossack roots...
Most of my relatives have -enko lastnames, my favorite food is salo and Okean Elzi is playing right now on my computer(and finally I even have Canadian citizenship ! lol ).

Is it good enough for you or should I be an anti-Russian supporter of Yushenko to qualify for Ukrainian?

[Alex_Ivanov]

Originally posted by MichaelB_PL

I'm not sure about this: I thought that only Novogorod's submission was limited to paying tribute to the Mongols while Muscovy was much more closely enslaved.


Actually, mongol culture was on the level of primitive tribe before they started their conquest. So there wasn't significant mongol influence on Russian culture. Always primitive culture is impacted by developped one and never the other way round. All what is often called "mongol culture" (including their religion) was borrowed from nations they conquered.

Plus, if you studied history of nomads, you should know that they often raided settled nations and defeated them militarily, but due to the very nature of their nomadic society were unable to govern conquered land. So they came, collected tribute, and leaved for the steppes again.

And last point. Mongol state was very decentralised. In fact it wasn't one united state. Great Khan, sitting in mongolia wasn't actual ruler of Golden Horde and other parts of their empire. That is a great contrast from Russian tradition of strong, centralised state that appeared under Byzantine influence.