RUSSIAN UKRAINE

[The_Last_Word]

The current crisis in the Ukraine proves that everything I said before is true. Russian-speaking Novo-Rossia (south) and Slobodskaya Ukraina (Kharkov-Sumy) voiced their support for the pro-Russian candidate and for Russian as a second official language.

It▓s about time the Russian-speakers in the Ukraine made themselves heard, but instead, most of the Western press focused on orange western Ukrainians. It▓s really pathetic how the West considers only western Ukrainian opposition as ⌠the people of the Ukraine.■ While pro-gov▓t Ukrainian press was not covering everything about the crisis, Western and Ukrainian ⌠orange■ press is spitting out more lies than Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany combined.

Here▓s a map of the election results, no matter how falsified they were. It clearly shows the linguistic divisions in the Ukraine: pro-Russian east and south, and pro-western west and north.



This division follows almost exactly the historic boundary between imperial Russia and Poland-Lithuania.

I am sure the foreign backers of both sides prepared carefully planned election strategies. I think Russia is not going to let Ukraine slip away so easily into western hands. Yuschenko is a naОve whore to think he can have his cake and eat it too.

I foresaw the Yugoslavia scenario for the Ukraine a long time ago. However, all involved sides are against violence (at least in the open). In reality, both sides are very well prepared for a violent outcome of this crisis, but nobody will say anything, because it▓s not politically correct and neither side wants to be blamed.




Recently, at the All-Ukrainian conference of deputies the delegates of the blue regions on this map decided to consider autonomy from the Ukrainian state in the event of Yuschenko becoming president. It shows the opposition is not so powerful after all.

Yuschenko and his nationalist supporters continue to hold on to the dream of a great Ukrainian empire, half of which consists of historically Russian territories. The nationalists-imperialists think they can keep Soviet Ukraine in one piece forever, without being challenged. They were wrong. And they lost. Yuschenko is a total idiot.

The British Helsinki Human Rights Group and the Guardian newspaper published objective material regarding alleged voting fraud and biased Western coverage of the crisis.

The Le Temps newspaper just recently admitted (the first in Western press, I believe) that the Ukrainians are a hybrid identity. The country doesn▓t have a single nation, like Germany, for example. In Ireland, if an English-speaker doesn▓t speak Gaelic, he is still considered Irish. Ukraine is a territorial entity, not a ethnically unified monolith. Le Temps doesn▓t go all the way. It doesn▓t mention the history of Novo-Rossia and eastern Ukraine, which were never part of the historic Ukraine. Like I posted previously, these Russian regions were added to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic by the Soviets in 1918 and in 1954.

If a stubborn Ukrainian nationalist acknowledges these historic facts and truths, he/she would immediately see a solution to the present crisis. Other solutions will not solve the problems.

The following map shows a very likely outcome of this crisis.



To keep themselves away from the western idiot Yuschenko, eastern and southern regions, like Donetsk, Kharkov, Odessa, Crimea, etc. are ready to create an autonomy. Some were even considering complete separation from the state. What a beautiful idea! The light blue regions of Novo-Rossia and Slobodskaya Ukraina (historically Russian region of Ukrainian refugee settlement) would separate from the Ukraine and soon join Russia.

The remainder of Ukraine will further divide after pro-Western whores tighten the screws on linguistic, religious, cultural, and most of all, economic freedoms. Cut off from industrial regions and from sea ports, the impoverished west and north will become dependent on U.S. and EU injections. It will divide into moderate dark blue historic Ukraine and a Polish-controlled ultra-nationalistic Galicia (possibly including Volyn to the north). Historic Ukraine would most likely choose to maintain strong ties with neighbors Russia and Belarus, while maintaining extensive freedoms of its own. The Carpathian region will probably want to keep away from all sides and embrace neutrality if it can.

The nationalists▓ strategy of busing supporters from the west into Kiev to mass up demonstrations reminds me of Kazan Tatars in the early 1990s, when they also bused provincial Tatars into Kazan to stage nationalist riots. This shows a planned-out strategy and not the free will of the Ukrainian people.

[The_Last_Word]

Originally posted by Kathy
It's difficult to let go of the notion of empire, isn't it?

Yes. Unfortunately it's really difficult for sluts like Yuschenko to let go of his Ukrainian empire dreams.

The differences are due to battling oligarchies, not ethnic identity.

Where do you suppose Ukrainian oligarchs come from? Another country? Another planet?

Have a look at the breakdown of voting patterns in the US election. Or Canada. Or that of several EU nations. The Ukrainian example, in that context, is unremarkable, other than the fact that scores of dead people managed to dig themselves up to vote, and both candidates were so popular that in several regions, turnout was up to 107% (and they managed to do this without the aid of Diebold!)

Have a look at the real history of the Ukraine and the current Ukrainization of Russian-speaking communities.

[Drij]

LOL are you kidding me. Once you actually make a valid point there might be a reason to add to your dumb thread.

"it▓s about time the Russian-speakers in the Ukraine made themselves heard"

LOL

[The_Last_Word]

Originally posted by Kathy
I was referring to your ethno centric dream.

To make a long story short: read up on some of my posts in the History forum. My aspirations are in regard to territory that belongs to Russia, and whose inhabitants settled it while being part of Russia. Not about ethnicity at all.

If Yushchenko is a slut (actually, I'd state a criminal), then what are Yanukovych, Kuchma and the Donbass mafia?

In WW2, the U.S. army under future President Eisenhauer employed the help of the Sicilian Mafia in Italy to fight against fascist leader Mussolini and the Germans in Italy. This much is known through documented history. There is much more we don't know.

You are arguing based on emotion rather than fact. The election has nothing to do with "eastern" vs "western" Ukraine. From where does Yushchenko hail? Tymoshenko?

What the hell does "hail" mean? Are you trying to say that since they are from the east that makes them pro-Russian? It's not hard for a Donetsk person to become a Galician, or vice-versa. There are Yanukovich supporters in Lvov too. But in general, geographic location determines local preferences in language, religion, economic activity, and political sympathy.

Look at where the money is coming from. Ukrainians are finally pissed off at being played as fools. That is what the protests are about.

No, Kathy. Don't be so naive. Protesters are just tools of sluts like Timoshenko and Yuschenko, who themselves don't know what the hell they are doing. Yuschenko is hiding behind the protesters like a coward.
Ukraine is supported by Russian investment and American foreign (free) aid. Under Yanukovich there was growth.

There is no "Ukrainization" of Russian communities. Unlike the Tsars' policies vis a vis the Ukrainian language, nobody has yet to ban Russian from being published or spoken in Ukraine.

This was a big deal 2-3 years ago. Read in past posts.
[QUOTE]

[The_Last_Word]

Right. ...Politically heard.
But then again, the orange madness screams louder than a pig in a slaughterhouse.

Originally posted by Drij
LOL are you kidding me. Once you actually make a valid point there might be a reason to add to your dumb thread.

"it▓s about time the Russian-speakers in the Ukraine made themselves heard"

LOL

[nikolai]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kathy
[B]
There is no "Ukrainization" of Russian communities. Unlike the Tsars' policies vis a vis the Ukrainian language, nobody has yet to ban Russian from being published or spoken in Ukraine.
[B]

I have visited Crimea a number of times in recent years. And I know from speaking with people there that many of them resent Ukrainization of their community.

I saw with my own eyes huge billboards advertizing products in Ukrainian. And on the streets I never heard anything but Russian language there. I don't know why there are no billboards in Russian. But I suspect it's because the Kiev government has banned Russian language on such billboards.

I also know from my own experience that all government documents are in Ukrainian there. And many Russian-speaking people find this very inconvenient and frustrating. They often don't understand what's going on, when they have to deal with their own government.

Ukrainian nationalists from Western Ukraine did not allow two official languages in Russian speaking regions of Ukraine, when this issue came up in parliament. And now they have no one but themselves to blame for Ukraine's division along ethnic and language lines.

These Ukrainian nationalists should have looked at what happened in Canada between the English and French. English majority has trampled on French-language rights. And Canada almost split apart. The only reason why Canada is still one country now is because they've made two official languages for the whole country, English and French.

Perhaps these Ukrainian nationalist should learn a lesson or two from the Canadian experience.

Denying language rights to a large minority within any country will always alienate that minority and perhaps lead to division of the country.

[Edited by nikolai on 3rd December 2004 at 14:02]

[Voyager13b]

It appears that the Supreme Court has ruled that the last round of voting was bogus. They indicated that testimony by members of the Central Election Committee paved the way to their decision. Blue supporters can cry until they are blue in the face, but it appears that the fraud was carried out on their behalf, and that the court recognized that fact by setting a December date for a new vote. Kuchma and Putin made it clear that they would like to have a several Month period to prepare for a totally new election cycle, where they could introduce a new fish to the pool, and replace Yanuck, the rotten fish, with a more acceptable candidate.

By forcing the new election within weeks, the court seems to be agreeing that the blue side (no matter how many dead Galicians were accused of voting in the west), was the source of most of the problem, and would prefer the runoff to take place honestly, and without reshuffling the deck by proposing a new candidate, and starting the entire election over.

Time will tell how it all firms up, but after reading so much bile about the orange from the blue fraud barrons, it would be more than satisfying if Yuschenko won in the end, Ukraine weathered the storm and stayed in one piece, and the country prospered over time, while maintaing good relations with both east and west. If that scenario comes to pass, maybe Russia will begin to learn that the government is a mule that is better driven by the people, rather than the other way around.

Voyager