Realistic view of the EU "brass ring"...

[Freedom1]

Ivan HRABAR, first pro-rector, Zhytomyr State Technological University; Doctor of Sciences (Engineering); chairman, Derzhava regional non-governmental organization:

⌠My prescription is very simple. The president, every elected deputy of any level, and every citizen of Ukraine must do their utmost for our country to become a democratic law-governed state and have equal starting opportunities for every individual. That▓s all. No need to buy the current government▓s and opposition▓s votes during the elections. No need to reinvent the bicycle: democratic institutions and mechanisms are common knowledge. Figuratively speaking, I am not discovering America here. All you have to do is go to France, Germany, or Britain and see the way these institutions work. And if we become a democratic state, it will make no much difference to me, a citizen of this state, whether or not Europe will take us in. For there will be self-sufficient conditions for us to live better. Why are we dreaming of Europe? We think Europe will share its treasures with us. I do not think it will, I think these are naive hopes. We must win these treasures by ourselves. But, to do so, we must first of all create the conditions available in any democratic state. And I am convinced it is the future president▓s sacred duty to follow this unavoidable path. The future president himself, as well as every other citizen, will be interested in this. A system should have a kind of feedback. Given the latter, the system is self-sufficient and will develop. But when a system has only the administrative resource instead of feedback, it is inevitably doomed to degeneration and self-destruction. We must do all this by ourselves. Europe will neither feed us nor establish democracy for us.■

╧23 July 22 2003 ╚The Day╩


Seems like Ivan has a good handle on the situation, eh? Least IMHO.

[Volodya987]

Democracy:
Dem = smoke
'O = off, from
C = sea
Ra = god the anglo/kelt
C = sea, recursive programming, or the ability of a computer program to climb up its own arsehole
Y = v on an AllTar = in = foreign dogpig
Democracy: you can vote for anyone you like, but, you can only elect a member of the lawyer's union ie a fascist, cabbalistic state.

[candle]

All you have to do is go to France, Germany, or Britain and see the way these institutions work.

Oh no, not France. If I▓m right they have the Napoleonic law, you▓re guilty till proven innocent. I prefer the English way, you▓re innocent till proven guilty.

On a serious note, they did it exactly as he said. Just with some adjustments to the Ukraine▓s needs. In my opinion the problem is not in structural organization, but in corruption. Europe stands on the laws from the times when they where cutting hands of tiffs. Ukraine on the other hand stays on the mentality of Breznew, ⌠everybody in order to survive have to steal■ and his predecessors who have being killing intelligent and honorable people and instead teaching that everyone who is a good communist supposed to report on an enemy of the state even if this is your parent.

[Freedom1]

Couldn't agree more. From what I have heard and read ( but not seen), there is no 'social contract' in Ukraine, or it's a perverse one. A 'social contract' is as simple as stopping for a red light. Obeying rules of conduct, i.e., law, so the whole society runs smoothly. It will be an enormous issue, as for too long now, people have been forced to skirt around "rules". It will be hard to relearn this.

Heavens, would it be the case that the last time native Ukrainians were bound by, and adhered to, a true social contract or order was in the times of the Cossacks?

Please tell me I'm wrong!

Yet, I would agree with Ivan's thought that it has to come from within, not from abroad.

[Volodya987]

The basic foundation of any society is strong family ties.
Horizontally, between husband and wife, and between their brothers and their sisters and between their husbands and their wives. Vertically, between grand parents, parents and grand children. The centre of human organisation IS the kitchen table, NOT the television set.
While humans thinks that societies such as "THE" U.S.A., are eminent nations, rather than diseases to be eradicated, the problems of humanity will go on.

[Freedom1]

Absolutely Volodya and it appears those ties still bind strong in Ukraine. But also, beyond the circle of family, goes the circle of community, then of society.

Certainly might be that strong family values are the bedrock for everything else. Witness the dissolution of societal social order ( use the States as an example) as the strength of family ties dissolves.

I view it as a series of concentric circles. One builds on the next.

[BLap]

Pseudo-Democracy like the US has is 1000X better than Marxist Socialism like the Soviet Union had. It's hard to believe anyone can appreciate such an oppressive form of government. My best wishes are that with new found Democracy * , that Ukraine will become an independent and financially stable country in the years to come. Some people over here (US) are hoping the best for you guys/gals. I think the EU is a bad thing, personally. It might be good for an economic 'jumpstart', but after that it is just another EMPIRE if you want to call it that. It won't last..







* - Not sure how Kuchma is (lack of familiarity). I know Lukashenko is a tyrant, and I'm not sure if things are the same for you? For Russia, I was skeptical of KGB Putin at first but he doesn't seem too crazy. BTW, I think Mr. Yeltsin was a great man.