peaceful divorse of the Ukraine and Western Ukraine

[SanRusDiego]

You know, why is it that whenever I talk to anyone who is either Polish or from Lvov it's like talking to a cardboard cutout? I was born in Kharkiv, my family has been in that region for generations. My parents know Ukrainian but we speak Russian at home and I was taught only Russian. Can you explain that one to me? Your friends don't see themselves as being Russians, SO WHAT. I know people from Quebec who do not consider themselves French(and dont want to split) yet a good portion of the population does. What's your point?

Once again, why is it that whenever there is talk of a referendum you are afraid? Russians gave the Chechens one, why don't you try it in the east and Crimea, this time for real.

Oh, and Andrei is right, I just noticed that when asked "Who are you?" I answer a Russian from Ukraine.

[candle]

Ok SanRusDiego, I give up... You want the referendum at any cost, how I could explain you anything? Go ask Kuchma, he will send you all the way to San Diego. Just don▓t blame me, he is yours, speaks Russian, good communist and you voted for him.

And if you live in San Diego I would vote for separation of northern California from southern, just cose I hate to live in same state with you.

[Freedom1]

Ulysees does indeed point to the right solution, a political one. And candle's comments dont effect the efficacy of it...

To wit, when quantifying a measure of strife, you can use a simple equation:

strife = relative deprivation/political participation.

( pretend that's math, rd is the numerator and PP is the denominator)

An increase in the denominator reduces "strife". To increase PP means, in this context, to have a federal government, as well as "regional" government, with a good deal of control and autonomy at the regional level, i.e., instituionalize the regional differences by providing regional government some power, within their region.

Forgive me, but I am not very familiar with the current political structure in Ukraine and would deeply appreciate a short dissertation, or link, for this information.

BTW, these type of equations were used by folks like Samulson and Gurr. Just a simple model.

The other way to reduce strife is, of course, to reduce "realtive deprivation" which is the notion that " I am not getting what I deserve ". Populations with have a bright outlook for the future, typically would have low levels of RD, and therefore, all else being equal, be relativly stable societies.

And off the model, sure be 'sweet' to arrest all the bad guys, confiscate all their cash ( including foreign stashes) and try them properly. I know, a dream, because you'd have to start with the crooked bastards at the top.

.300 whisper in the ear would be a start! Sorry, I know I jest, but it would be unifying if all the GOOD Ukrainians thought they had a chance against the 'bad' guys.

I play "armchair quarterback" I know, but a stronger regionalist structure as well as rule of law would do wonders to tie together east and west, don't you think?

Why divorce? There are not 'irreconcilable differences'. Simply have to build the differences into a political structure that allows participation.

[Andrej]

So far I couldn▓t even convince you that they are ethnically Ukrainian and have right for their own language.

Indeed they have a right. Every Ukranian has a right to consider what he considers his native language. Russian, Ukranian or a mix of both. Weather he considers himself Ukranian, Russian or Russian from Ukraine.

I say Chaykivsky (all because his name is from old Ukrainian Kazak Family name) and when it come to Aivazovsky I say Aivazyan

Its not what you say. Its what the man considered himself. You know Pushkin had some black roots. Does that mean he wrote African Poetry ? You say Aivazayan, I assume thats Armenian. However the only question is, how did the man sign his name, did he mind having his name Russified ? Or was he proud to be Russian. If Stalin wasn't a tyrant, but a great writer, you would call him Dzhugashvili. I hope you see my point. Being Russian is as much an ethnicity as a state of mind...

That▓s the way that you say it now when Ukraine become independent, but I do remember the times when you▓ve being ⌠older brother■. Nothing personal when I say ⌠you■, it▓s simply expression that qualifies to Russia as an empire.

Of course we were the bigger brothers. Please look at the map, whenever we did you wrong, we usually did unto ourselves as well. I am not talking about seeing Ukranian people as lesser beings, but nationwide.


Ignore Prawda. According to his logic, today Turkey should be populated by Greeks and Armenians and America should be given back to the Indians.

[Norse_Slav]

Talking about Western Ukraine. The actual "Western" Ukraine where peoples speak western-ukrainian dialect and follow the Greek Catholicism is only a small portion of Ukraine. aprroximately 1/5 of the country. And I dont think that they will ever desire for independence.

The whole industrial sector like automative, airplane and other industry is concetrated in Eastern Ukraine where peoples feel good about Russia. And the future of Ukrainian economical revival is connected not with Lvov, but with Kiyev, Kharkiv, Donetsk.

[candle]

However the only question is, how did the man sign his name, did he mind having his name Russified ? Or was he proud to be Russian.

I see it differently, wither the man would have his name the way he wants or he had no other choice but rusify his name. Why in the world someone would change his name unless he fills trettened?

Of course we were the bigger brothers. Please look at the map

Here we go┘ Here the mask finally felled of your face.

Talking about Western Ukraine. The actual "Western" Ukraine where peoples speak western-ukrainian dialect and follow the Greek Catholicism is only a small portion of Ukraine. And I dont think that they will ever desire for independence.

What▓s wrong about speaking western Ukrainian dialect?

About the Greek Catholicism, what▓s wrong about this?

And what about the independence? What are you talking about? The independence from dialect or from religion?

The whole industrial sector like automative, airplane and other industry is concetrated in Eastern Ukraine where peoples feel good about Russia. And the future of Ukrainian economical revival is connected not with Lvov, but with Kiyev, Kharkiv, Donetsk.

This is like saying that my right hand is the one that is writing and is scratching and is kicking and the left hand is useless, and if I could just chop it off then no harm will be done to me but I will only befit. Dooh┘.

[Norse_Slav]

Originally posted by candle

I see it differently, wither the man would have his name the way he wants or he had no other choice but rusify his name. Why in the world someone would change his name unless he fills trettened?

Here we go┘ Here the mask finally felled of your face.

What▓s wrong about speaking western Ukrainian dialect?

About the Greek Catholicism, what▓s wrong about this?

And what about the independence? What are you talking about? The independence from dialect or from religion?

This is like saying that my right hand is the one that is writing and is scratching and is kicking and the left hand is useless, and if I could just chop it off then no harm will be done to me but I will only befit. Dooh┘.

candle there is nothing wrong with speaking on western Ukrainian dilaect. Just sometimes those who speak on western-ukrainian dialect thought that it is the only true Ukrainian language even though western-ukrainians even had some further to slavic influences like Hungarian. I am against only bigotry from both sides. I dont have anything against Greek-Catholics .

Offcourse the western ukrain all alone is not totally unuseful. But it is as useful as lets say Sicily wihout the rest of Italy, or Northern Sweden without Stockholm.