To Zenja, Vanya, Lenire.

[happy_gunner]

zenjavajive

'Scuse me... I don't seem to understand what this is all about. Happy Gunner... are you saying that there was no genocide occuring in the Balkans? or somewhere else? and , maybe both of you could have a go at defining what your terms... 'Genocide'... how many people have to belong to a certain group and then be killed, to call it genocide? Is this term 'Genocide'... the same as 'Ethnic Cleansing'?

- Unfortunately, the word "Genocide" has been abused by Clinton and Blair to the extent that the several hundred thousand Armenians were definitely not on the receiving end of Genocide (both became 'holocaust deniers' rather than offend Turkey), but the "at least 900" Albanians were.
To the US and UK whether or not a genocide has taken place is determined by political expediancy
I didn't say that there was no genocide, I said that the genocide of 100,000 was an invention. So was the genocide of 500,000, of 250,000, of 60,000, 4-12,000 (the last repeated as fact by the appalling liars of 'Human Rights Watch').
I also did not say the 'genocide' of about 900 (what Slobo's charged with) was an invention, but they have not taken into account how many of the dead were KLA.
To kill a person because he is a terrorist, or because you believe him/her to be a terrorist, is technically murder, but cannot be 'genocide', because genocide needs the motive for the murder to be to expel the target ethnic group.
So let's be biased in the favour of the Hague prosecution and say that a few hundred were victims of genocide, and it was a genuine genocide.
The above mentioned genocides of up to 500,000 are still FAKE. The 'victims' were not even killed, they cannot be, they were never born, or conceived, they have never gestated in a womb, they were never named for they had no parents, they have never breathed, they have never gone missing, no-one is looking for them, they have never existed outside the infantile propaganda of a few dirtbag politicians in 1999. Therefore it is an incontrovertible fact that these cases of 'genocide' are inventions.

IMHO genocide is a bit like pornography, difficult to sum up in a few words, but I know it when I see it. I cannot see how ethnic cleansing is 'genocide'; there is ethnic cleansing in N. Ireland, where families of the wrong religion are intimidated into moving out of the area to 'cleanse' it, but even the emotional language of Ulster politics does not claim this as 'genocide'.

"Happy Gunner: what was that you said about a lad being 'hacked to death' in your country? for trying to save someone?"
- He helped shelter a girl who'd been forcibly trafficked into the UK to work as a prostitute, for this the pimp cut him up like a kipper in the middle of the town centre, the killer just went back to Albania, the local police do not expect him to ever face justice.
I assume you are all aware of the raison d'etre of the KLA was trafficking in girls and heroin, before their makeover into 'heroic freedom fighters'. Many of these entered the UK, as 'refugees from Serb opression' and proceeded to take over large chunks of the vice trade. The KLA are definitely not the only organisation forcing girls into prostitution, but they are widely believed to be one of the most powerful, and most vicious.

johnstruthers
The ethnic cleansing was a well-reported scandal, and it was like moving mountains to get the US involved at all. Read the damned newspapers from the period leading up to US participation.

- The reporting was an outrage, a disgrace, aimed at subhuman retards, and not the just usual idiot-fodder like the BBC and CNN, but by several previously respected journalists. (Matt Frei, of newsnight, should apologise, then shoot himself). The legality of the bombing, the reason for the bombing, the fake mass graves, the "Serbian" school with exercise books in terrorism (they showed the books, they were in Albanian), NATO 'confirms', the Serbs 'claim', refugees at the Kosovo border had "walked for hundreds of miles" (so they started out from another country, presumably), I've got British newspapers from the ****ing Crimean War, it was reported with more accuracy than this ****.

If you are satisfied by the reporting of the bombing of Serbia, then you are sinking to the level of fairbro, which I am confident you are never going to do, may I assume that, like me, you occasionally have a bad day at the keyboard.

There will be more oh yes, and it will be even more boring and long-winded than above. I apologise in advance.

[happy_gunner]

I am sorry if the tone seems a bit unfriendly, I have just spent three & half hours in ****ing traffic travelling the SIX MILES home from work (Aaaaaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhhh!!), no disrespect intended.

[johnstruthers]

First, HG, thanks for opening up this thread. Re the rest: The word "genocide" is, you are correct, bandied about too much and applied in cases where it doesn't fit. "Ethnic cleansing" has, in my mind, involved more than moving undesirables out of the neighborhood, the concept extending into mass slaughter. Who are these experts that claim the Serbs weren't performing this slaughter? I have no affection at all for Albania nor Albanians. I know it isn't PC to dislike a whole ethnic group, but when I lived in Michigan there was a whole neighborhood of them in Detroit, and a couple times a year there would be an Albanian wedding in which someone would shoot the uncle of someone who ticked off his grandfather 50 years ago, and inside of a couple weeks there would be two or three more bodies, and no one testifying. I wouldn't feel comfortable drinking with any of them.

Sorry for the offense. I don't like Slobodan's gang any more than I like the Albanians. Here, there were strong "blood brother Slav" feelings when the bombs fell. I have already expressed my opinion of that: The US wrecked a perfectly habitable city, killed lots of innocent people including some unfortunate Chinese diplomats, and choked off the Danube for a couple of years.

You have my sympathy for the traffic jam. I know the feeling.

[happy_gunner]

What a difference two years make:

16th May 1999

⌠On 16 May, the US defence secretary William Cohen said that Yugoslav army forces had killed up to 100,000 Albanian men of military age■

25th October 1999

"Paul Risley, the spokesman for the (Hague) Tribunal's prosecutor, vehemently denies a recent report by a Texas-based think-tank, Stratfor, that the number of bodies discovered to date is in the hundreds."


29th October 2001

"Beginning on or about January the 1st, 1999 and continuing until the 20th of June, 1999, forces of the FRY and Serbia, acting at the direction, with the encouragement, or with the support of Slobodan Milosevic and others known and unknown murdered hundreds of Kosovo Albanian citizens."
- Counts 3&4 Hague Tribunal Indictment.


Sir: The claim of the genocide of 100,000 people, aimed at the most gullible retards on the face of the planet, was a despicable and outright lie.
YES or NO ?????

[lenire]

Gunner,
Go into a small farming community, only one is of dif. ethnethticity, (Albanian for Vanya, Ha). Get some guys and some guns and move him and his family on. He comes out with his old shotgun to protect his home. You shoot him.
Is that ethnic cleansing or, as you seem to promote, the killing an opposing soldier.

We continue to debate the numbers involved. Even the lowest one quoted is mass murder on a gigantic scale. Milosovic is where he should be, and he is not alone, many more I hope will follow. Put any kind of word to it you want. Thats just symantics. Mass murder took place....WHY ?

Len

[happy_gunner]

lenire I don't "seem" to "promote" anything. I was asked questions and I answered them by stating the bleeding obvious in plain English ie people who don't exist cannot be killed.
Inventing my comment on your hypothetical incident which I hadn't even seen yet is plain barking!
Mass murder on a grand scale? How grand? 200? 300? Then how grand is the lies of 4,000 12,000 60,000 100,000 250,000 and 500,000? The same pricks who invented those are the ones who expect you to believe 900.

Again: The genocide of 100,000 people was an outright and despicable lie: YES or NO?

"Mass murder took place....WHY ?"

There were three participants in the mass murder, no-one is going to say "I committed murder because...." so we have to speculate:

1. Murder of ethnic Albanians by Serb paramilitaries: Revenge attacks for murder of Serb paramilitaries and civilians (and Romany civilians) by ethnic Albanians.

2. Murder of Serb paramilitaries and civilians by Albanian terrorists: The usual reason for terrorist outrages is to force the target government into launching counter-productive revenge attacks on the communities from which the terrorists have emerged. If so, it worked. (Israel reacts in a similar way).

3. Murder of Serb civilians by NATO aerial campaign: The word "murder" is totally correct as these were unlawful killings. The reason for the bombing was repeatedly given as being to force Slobo to sign the Rambouillet treaty.
The historical parallel is the treaty offered to Czechoslovakia by Nazi Germany, specifically the two unacceptable demands of Rambouillet (1. Invasion of all or any part of Serbia by NATO forces 2. Elections on sovereignty of Kosovo).
These 'peace negotiations' were against the 1980 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, which forbids coercion and force. Yugoslavia was told "sign or be bombed."
There is shedloads more about the legalities (lack of) if you're interested.

IMHO leaders of all three scum organisations should be in the dock, on specific war crimes charges, not emotional politically-motivated cock like 'genocide'.

BUT since the three sets of murderers involved are all such pathetic and habitual liars, they are unlikely to make a full confession That would take courage from Milosevic, Clinton, Blair and the KLA! The one thing all these characters are totally innocent of is being caught in posession of a single ounce of the stuff

PS: Congrats to the US and Serbia, they got rid of their scum, we're still stuck with ours.





[Edited by happy_gunner on 1st February 2003 at 00:13]

[happy_gunner]

I've been looking through posts on this subject and others on this site, and the fact that I've had discussions with some of the individuals on this board makes my skin crawl. I wish the non-hypocrites among you the best of luck, but I'm off for good before I throw up.

I'll leave you with this, here is a scaled-down version of the stuff I was going to bore everyone with:

http://www.europaworld.org/issue40/r...emkin22601.htm

Raphael Lemkin
Internationally acclaimed as the man who coined the term 'genocide', Raphael Lemkin was born to Jewish parents in Eastern Poland in 1901. It is ironic that it was not the persecution of his own people which led Lemkin to not only invent the phrase but to dedicate his life to fighting its reality. This struggle did not start, as might be expected, after the atrocities of the Second World War but some years before they had even begun.

Raphael Lemkin was educated at home together with his two brothers. He studied philology at the University of Lwow before deciding on a career in law. He gained a doctorate from the University of Heidelburg in Germany and in 1929 began teaching at Tachkimoni College in Warsaw. He became a public prosecutor and for the next five years represented Poland at conferences all over the world. A prominent international figure Dr Lemkin also served on the on the Polish Law Codification Committee and helped draft the criminal code of a newly independent Poland.

In 1933 Dr Lemkin was deeply disturbed by the massacre of Christian Assyrians by Iraqis. His distress was compounded by earlier memories of the slaughter of Armenians by Turks during the First World War and the international jurist began to examine these acts as crimes in an effort to deter and prevent them. He presented his first proposal to outlaw such 'acts of barbarism' to the Legal Council of the League of Nations in Madrid the same year. However, the proposal failed and his work incurred the disapproval of the Polish government, which was at the time pursuing a policy of conciliation with Nazi Germany. He was forced to retire from his public position in 1934. Undeterred Dr Lemkin continued his work in private law practice until the German invasion of Poland in 1939 led him to experience at first hand the very acts that he was working to prevent.
Dr Lemkin was wounded whist fighting the Nazis outside Warsaw. He hid in the Polish forests for six months before finally escaping to Sweden by way of Lithuania and the Baltic Sea. The exile was to save him. He and his brother Elias were the only members of the forty-strong Lemkin family that were to survive the Nazi occupation.

<http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/022.shtml>

Lemkin described how he coined the word 'genocide' as follows:
This word is made from the ancient Greek word genos (race, clan) and the Latin suffix cide (killing)... Genocide is the crime of destroying national, racial or religious groups... The conscience of mankind has been shocked by this type of mass barbarity.
Lemkin argued that genocide must be made an international crime because "a state would never prosecute a crime instigated or backed by itself."
In August,1941, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill lamented in describing the German systematic destruction and mass murders of European populations as follows: "We are in the presence of a crime without a name." Today, that crime is called genocide. What occurred during 1941-1945 in Bosnia-Hercegovina, the systematic and planned mass murders and extermination of the Bosnian Serb and Bosnian Jewish populations, would be termed genocide under present international law and the Genocide Convention.
Bosnia-Hercegovina is a failure to learn from history. Like the Armenian Genocide and the Jewish Holocaust, it is a failure we must all share in; we are all guilty. That is, it is a failure to learn from the past.
George Santayana, in The Life of Reason (1905), stated that "Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Here's a picture to please the NATO supporters on this board, some of those nice Albanians who were so helpful in WW2


http://www.kosovo.com/annex1.html#globe

Alomerovic: Slavic Muslims in Kosovo
victims of both sides in the conflict
The President of the Helsinki Committee for Human Rights (HOP) in Sandzak, Sefko Alomerovic, stated on Friday (December 17) that "Muslims-Bosniaks in Kosovo, although they did not participate in Serb-Albanian clashes, were victims of both sides," reports BETA. At a press conference in Belgrade, Alomerovic stated that about 40,000 Muslims left Kosovo in 1998 and 1999. Those who tried to return to their homes after the arrival of KFOR were murdered.
He said that in 1998 and 1999 "Serb forces burned down Bosniak houses in
Kosovo, and that after the arrival of KFOR members of the Kosovo Liberation Army started to abduct Muslims-Bosniaks, set their houses on fire and engage in other violent acts. In Pristina, out of 11,000 Muslims-Bosniaks before the war, only 70 families remain [i.e. about 400 people]. Since the arrival of KFOR fifty-one Muslim-Bosniak has been killed, including 11 women. In Kosovska Mitrovica, 92 Bosniak houses in the Bosniak Quarter have been set on fire, and another 60 Bosniak houses in the village of Vitomirica [near Pec] suffered the same fate," said Alomerovic.
He also said that in the south of Kosovo Muslims-Bosniaks are not pressured to leave but to instead assimilate. As a proof of this Alomerovic quoted threats to the citizens of Sredacka Zupa, Podgora and Gora [Gorans, Slavic,
Serb-language-speaking Muslims who consider themselves distinct from Muslims-Bosniaks] that "even [their] dogs and cats will speak Albanian".
The Helsinki Committee, according to Alomerovic, has evidence and documents which prove that some Muslims-Bosniaks have been issued "permits to use Bosniak language" and charged for that "service".

Vjesnik, Zagreb, Croatia, November 2 1999

ZAGREB - About 300 Croats from the Kosovo villages of Letnica and
Vrnavokla have moved to Croatia...

The reasons which forced them to leave the area where they had resided for almost seven centuries and resettle to areas in which many of them have never been are well known.

One amongst them, Josip Markovic, described the situation in the Kosovska Vitina municipality in the following way: "Since the arrival of KFOR we have been left totally unprotected.
At first, armed ethnic Albanians from the neighboring villages visited us dressed in KLA uniforms. They mistreated us even though we never gave them a reason for that: during the war we sided with neither side. Now they come to our village as armed civilians and they recently killed and mutilated, with an axe, Petar Tunic from the village of Sosare. We hoped that KFOR would protect us, but that turned out not to be the case. Likewise, multiethnic Kosovo is also a mirage."

Prior to sending three consecutive letters by way of which they requested protection from Zagreb, they witnessed various humiliations: one was the rape of Justina Peric from Letnica; daily theft of cattle from their stables;
burning of homes, and cutting down of woods...
The usurpation of the primary school in Letnica (and the local church) was particularly painful for their language, culture and tradition, because parents were told that in the future classes would be held exclusively in Albanian.

Enes Halilovic (AIM)
Vreme, Belgrade, FR Yugoslavia, December 11 1999
Around 12 noon restaurant owner Ahmet confirms that he, too, is making more money than before the war. "An espresso is one German mark; so is a glass of juice. Everything is calculated in German marks, my friend."
Around 7:00 p.m. that evening I learn that some Albanian cracked his skull open with an iron bar and that Ahmet is in the hospital where doctors are fighting for his life. "Because he is a Turk," the translator tells me, "you'll see what happens when the KFOR Turks catch whoever did it; he will regret that he was born." Previously the Albanians had forced Turkish children to attend school in Albanian.
In Prizren not a single Turkish word could be heard. Now everything is different, the Turkish army is here to successfully hunt down those who formerly tossed Turks and Bosniaks out of their restaurants, beat them up or mistreated them.
I interview Numan Balic, the president of SDA in Kosovo. He is an ideal interviewee requiring no prior preparation. I quote: "It is true that there have been kidnappings and killings of Bosniaks by the Albanians.
Now the situation has improved but it still has not reached the desired level of mutual trust.
The battle for our survival in Kosovo is the battle for schools in the Bosniak language. We are on the threshold of securing ideal conditions for the education of our children. We have ordered textbooks from Bosnia-Hercegovina."...

A luxurious red limousine cruises around Prizren with the license plate "ZJJARI 002". The limousine is driven by an Albanian who sets Serbian houses on fire. They say he also set two Jewish houses on fire. "Zjjari" in Albanian means fire.
A Bosniak man says: "I wish that Slobo could come back if only for three days. These Shiptars [ethnic Albanians] have grown so oppressive.
They do not allow us Bosniaks to utter a sound. They tell us that we must state that we are Shiptars or flee from Kosovo. I think they can't even stand themselves by now."
The church in the center of the city is protected by Germans; there are almost no Serbs in Prizren, perhaps ten or twenty in all.