Stirring the pot

[ToddR]

Almost by definition, culture and ethnicity are what a people define themselves as. They are not defined by history, language, genetics, etc but intertwined with. Take the modern Greeks for example. Are they genetically descendent from the Ancient Greeks? Not really, centuries of war and immigration have seen to that. Does that preclude them from thinking of themselves as Greek and claiming the cultural heritage and history of ancient Greece as their own? Not at all, they think of themselves as Greek and therefore they are. Same with Ukrainians, they think of themselves as Ukrainians and therefore they are. No one else has a right to define for me who I am. Ukrainian culture exists, and is separate and equal to Greek, Russian, Polish, German, etc and must be respected as such. In my experience many cultural Russians don▓t respect it at all.

A common example, the spelling of Lviv. Lvov in Russian, Lwow in Polish, Lemburg in German. Insisting that one spelling is ALWAYS INCORRECT is disrespectful at best and racist at the worst. Each is correct in their particular language and the best spelling would be that which the locals define themselves. Apply the same rules to Kharkov.

Nationalism and Cultural Imperialism √ I find that both are practiced by both sides and the nationalism is a rather natural reaction to imperialism. If the Russians were less culturally imperialistic, the Ukrainians would much less nationalistic.

For example, speak Russian in Lviv and you will have no problems. Speak Russian with an attitude or insist on the Ukrainian responding in Russian and there is a good chance you will see some nationalism face to face. Anyone who experiences first hand, personal nationalism in western Ukraine should look at their own actions first as it is the probable cause.

And I just can▓t help but responding to the idea that Kiev-Rus was Russian. It was Slavic. All Russians are Slavic, but all Slavs aren▓t Russian. Russians shouldn▓t monopolize Slavic history as exclusively their own.

That▓s my two cents.

[johnstruthers]

Hear hear! And thanks for the topic, Todd. In Nikolaev, language is optional, entirely. If you start out in Ukrainian and the other person replies in Russian, it's so what. Nobody is trying to jam anything down anyone's throat; they're just trying to be understood. We have a heavy Ukrainian accent to our Russian here, and a lot of Ukrainian words slip into Russian speech as do a lot of Russian words into Ukrainian speech. So I agree with so what. I find that "attitude" slops over from both sides of the argument on these boards, and it's just not necessary to get stereotypical. We can't tell each other apart here in this part of Ukraine, the customs blend pretty nicely complementing each other's, and it's fun and interesting to argue whether the borshch you're eating is the Ukrainian or Russian recipe, and according to whom. Here's a sto gram toast to getting along.

[Divchyna]

Originally posted by ToddR
Almost by definition, culture and ethnicity are what a people define themselves as. They are not defined by history, language, genetics, etc but intertwined with. Take the modern Greeks for example. Are they genetically descendent from the Ancient Greeks? Not really, centuries of war and immigration have seen to that. Does that preclude them from thinking of themselves as Greek and claiming the cultural heritage and history of ancient Greece as their own? Not at all, they think of themselves as Greek and therefore they are. Same with Ukrainians, they think of themselves as Ukrainians and therefore they are. No one else has a right to define for me who I am. Ukrainian culture exists, and is separate and equal to Greek, Russian, Polish, German, etc and must be respected as such. In my experience many cultural Russians don▓t respect it at all.

A common example, the spelling of Lviv. Lvov in Russian, Lwow in Polish, Lemburg in German. Insisting that one spelling is ALWAYS INCORRECT is disrespectful at best and racist at the worst. Each is correct in their particular language and the best spelling would be that which the locals define themselves. Apply the same rules to Kharkov.

Nationalism and Cultural Imperialism √ I find that both are practiced by both sides and the nationalism is a rather natural reaction to imperialism. If the Russians were less culturally imperialistic, the Ukrainians would much less nationalistic.

For example, speak Russian in Lviv and you will have no problems. Speak Russian with an attitude or insist on the Ukrainian responding in Russian and there is a good chance you will see some nationalism face to face. Anyone who experiences first hand, personal nationalism in western Ukraine should look at their own actions first as it is the probable cause.

And I just can▓t help but responding to the idea that Kiev-Rus was Russian. It was Slavic. All Russians are Slavic, but all Slavs aren▓t Russian. Russians shouldn▓t monopolize Slavic history as exclusively their own.

That▓s my two cents.

Just wanted to add thumbs up

[johnstruthers]

A few additional thoughts, though: I don't believe, and will never believe, that Russians are cultural imperialists NOW. Not in Ukraine, at least. How can they be? They're living among their neighbors, who may be all-Russian, all-Ukrainian, part-Russian/part-Ukrainian, part-Ukrainian/part Georgian. Who the hell cares except the rabid nationalists? This grudge-nursing doesn't have a future, so it's a good idea to get past it now. When we conduct business, teach school, or whatever we do every day, we don't ask our associates/students/customers whether they're Ukrainian, Russian or whatever. It is not part of the activity. I don't know any Russians with an "attitude". I know a bunch of nationalist Ukrainians with "attitude", and they don't wear well with their day-to-day compatriots, whether Ukrainian or Russian.

[forest]

Hello Vanya .I am glad there are Ukrainian Nationalists with attitude. There should have been more of them in past recent history then perhaps not so many Ukrainians would not have ended up in Siberian Gulags. The Russians certainly had nationalistic attitudes when they banned Ukrainian being spoken in schools etc. banned books being written in Ukrainian. perhaps if you knew one or two people who had suffered under the Russians you would be more sympathetic to the Ukrainian Nationalists Now the boots on the other foot the russkys don,t like it

[johnstruthers]

Forest, I sympathize with your feelings, but the Nationalist thing doesn't help anyone. I literally can't count the number of pople I know who suffered under Soviet rule, because I don't know the sum total of the people I know. This includes members of my immediate family who just disappeared. Everybody has their own story here, and I've got mine, too. It would tear your heart out. The prevailing attitude is "don't ever forget" mixed with "we don't need to bring this up too often now". But Nationalism with Attitude is kind of a non-productive, offensive thing that intends to elevate one people above another morally, and that stinks: Halos tend to fall down around our necks and choke us when we insist on wearing them in public. Nursing grudges? Americans and Japanese are great friends. Russians and Germans get along just fine. We've all got stains on our souls.

[Edited by johnstruthers on 17th December 2002 at 17:04]

[forest]

Vanya I apologise maybe I was a little bit crude with my language. But I just feel that a little Ukrainian nationalism at the present time is a good thing .I get the feeling that Russia is waiting for the oppurtunity to move back in. all the best