russia and ukraine, get back together!

[Ivans_grandson]

Being that I live in the US, this board is one of the few gauges by which I can devine the sentiment of Ukrainians regarding this matter. I have been a reader much longer than an active poster and have repeatedly seen the topic of union advocated. I truely hope that SWEETNOVEMBER is correct and that the general sentiment is against union with the Russians.

[SweetNovember]

Originally posted by Ivans_grandson
Being that I live in the US, this board is one of the few gauges by which I can devine the sentiment of Ukrainians regarding this matter. I have been a reader much longer than an active poster and have repeatedly seen the topic of union advocated. I truely hope that SWEETNOVEMBER is correct and that the general sentiment is against union with the Russians.

Ivans_grandson, I am Ukrainian, and I am not kidding about the civil war. Sure there'll be enough defenders of the union, but there'll be more of those who'd take to arms to defend independance. It's going to be a long and a very bloody fight, and even they (russophiles) understand it.

[The_Last_Word]

Bravo, Jablo and Zhuk! A brave topic indeed. However, I think you're addressing the wrong crowd. These forumers are mostly "westernizers" and they will never agree with you.

Originally posted by dynamok
Russia does not care if Ukraine is in good economic situation...

Well, they let the ukrainians get away with stealing Russian oil from the pipeline.

...Look how they reacted when the U.S. came into Georgia, same with NATO in former Yugoslavia.

How did they react? By going into the Ukraine?

...Russia doesn't care if Ukraine is a rich and stable country, they want to own it...

Actually, Russia conquered nearly half the lands that today make up the Ukraine. From Turks and Tatars, Russia conquered all the Black Sea coast, Donbass and Kharkov-Sumy region. Following the conquests settlement of these regions was carried out by Ukrainians, Russians, Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians, Germans, etc. So historically, Russia should own that land.

"Suicide" of Ukraine?

I think what people are really trying to say is that if Ukraine joins Russia all the Russian-speakers will not have to learn to speak Ukrainian anymore. So, only Ukrainian colonial ambitions will die.

...right up to the mid sixties Moscow was deporting Ukranian inteligentsia to the gulags

Don't be so egoistic. Moscow deported Russian intelligentsia, too. Many Russians were also killed in Gulags.

[/quote]
...last union between Russia and Ukraine. My family was throuhgn out because they dared to renounce communism and submission to the Russians. My grandfathers brother was taken by the KGB and never seen aga
[/quote]
Are you sure you're not lying. It was politically impossible to "submit" to Communism and to the Russians at the same time. Russian nationalism was destroyed by Communism. The two were not compatible.



There are actually many reasons for which Ukraine (or part of it) may want to consider union with Russia and Belarus, some have not been mentioned yet. I wonder if anyone here would consider to listen to them.

[StasUA]

Hmmm ... this topic is not the first of its kind on these boards, but anyway, I will try to contribute here.

Unification of two nations, in a rational understanding and perception, should be done when both desire for the unification to exist. This is a fact.

Now truth about relationship between Ukraine and Russia.

1)There is no doubt that Russia wants unification with Ukraine, because of all of the positive bonuses it will get from it. Exploitation of a rich foreign land, will always have a positive impact on the eploitator.

2)Nobody wants unification with Russia. What is Russia? Uncertain, unstable, mostly Asian country that is vulnerable to uprests, revolutions, oppressions and neverlasting corruptions.
What will a UNION with Russia give Ukraine?
Oil and gas, this is true. And for return Ukraine has to give ITSELf as a whole, to the russian exploitators.

3)UNION with Russia is impossible. All of the above was stated "IF" the union existed, now - how can it exist?
Whenever a country has "united" with Russia, the word "united" was the only thing that had anything to do with unification. All of the attempts to unite, were turned into direct forcificational oppressions, complete eliminational of the country in a sense of national identity, that is uniting with Russia.

The Future

Russian economical future is mostly based on fundemental and eternal instruments of russian economy: simply an exploitation of it's land. Therefore, it surely would and does seek for more land to exploit.

Ukrainian economy is based on export of manufactured goods, sphere of which, has been increasing for the past few years and there is no reason to say that its constancy would be terminated.


The_Last_Word
I've deleted about 1 or 2 messages since the year of 1999. Neither of my actions concerning elimination of a "message" are based upon my opinion/feelings towards them. They are based on using offending to anybody phrases and words.

However, I can't say that I've been much of an active mediator on these boards and if you believe that me being a mediator here, has a negative impact on discussions in Ukraine.com then you can freely write to the administrators, give some evidence(if you have any) and I'm sure they'll act as you desire them to.

[The_Last_Word]

Originally posted by StasUA
1)There is no doubt that Russia wants unification with Ukraine, because of all of the positive bonuses it will get from it. Exploitation of a rich foreign land, will always have a positive impact on the eploitator.

There is absolutely no evidence of that. Russia, official and the public, do not insist on it. Russia union with Belarus is just that, it does not invite anybody else into the union.
Exploitation exists in the Ukraine today of Russian gas and oil pipelines. Ukrainian gov't also exploits its population by forcing them to learn Ukrainian in school and severing their ties with Russia.

2)Nobody wants unification with Russia. What is Russia? Uncertain, unstable, mostly Asian country that is vulnerable to uprests, revolutions, oppressions and neverlasting corruptions.

More that 50 percent of Ukrainians want to be together with Russia, according to many public polls. Crimea wants in. But less than 10 percent want to be with Western Europe. Ukraine has all the negative characteristics above that you mistakenly attributed to Russia. Russia has become a NATO member and will soon join WTO. What does Ukraine have? A murderer for president, a corrupt gov't and an incompetent military that shoots down civilian airliners.
Remember also, that Ukrainian nationalist volunteers joined Taliban and Al Quaeda Wahabee terrorists in Chechnya to fight against Russia. This will come back to haunt Kiev in the future, when Ukraine will fall apart.

What will a UNION with Russia give Ukraine?
Oil and gas, this is true. And for return Ukraine has to give ITSELf as a whole, to the russian exploitators.

"As a whole" or as a hole? So, it's ok for Ukraine to occupy great expances of Russian land, but it's not good for Russia to receive their land back? Anyway, I don't think anyone mentioned whether Ukraine should give "ITSELF as a whole" or not. Only in your little mind.

3)UNION with Russia is impossible. All of the above was stated "IF" the union existed, now - how can it exist?
Whenever a country has "united" with Russia, the word "united" was the only thing that had anything to do with unification. All of the attempts to unite, were turned into direct forcificational oppressions, complete eliminational of the country in a sense of national identity, that is uniting with Russia.

If you want to pretend to know what words mean, just remember what Ukraine means: a territory on the border with another state. Ukraine today is a collection of border territories of Russia, Poland, Hungary and others.
The national identity of many Ukrainians is being reinvented by Ukrainian nationalists today. Their only purpose is for Ukrainians to be as different from Russians as possible and to assimilate all Russian-speakers. Your Russian oppression and elimination is largely exaggerated and does not compare to the present apartheid policies of official Kiev. How much crap does one have to go through in the Ukraine to air programs in Russian on TV?

The Future

Russian economical future is mostly based on fundemental and eternal instruments of russian economy: simply an exploitation of it's land. Therefore, it surely would and does seek for more land to exploit.

You are as always so outdated and romanticizing.

The_Last_Word
I've deleted about 1 or 2 messages since the year of 1999. Neither of my actions concerning elimination of a "message" are based upon my opinion/feelings towards them. They are based on using offending to anybody phrases and words.

Previously, you said you didn't delete anything of mine. However, if you want proof, look at many other posts with foul language that were not deleted. This is because their posters do not disagree with your and Irinka's political beliefs.

[Jarema]

Moskovets mene ne zemlak !!

In order to maintain its independence Ukraine must fight for it. People, just like you, have to resist extremism on the one hand and Rusification on the other.

It is not an easy task, but it is possible.

Remember, Russia will never stop being a threat to Central or Eastern Europe (unless a miracle will take place) and even more so to its immediate neighbors.

If you give up the struggle for freedom and independence now, Ukraine will never reemerge. Russia will then have you and your nation for breakfast!!!

Perhaps Bohdan Khmielnitsky's decision to ally with Russia was not the best option ......

[The_Last_Word]

Originally posted by Jarema
Moskovets mene ne zemlak !!

Ironically, the Russians do not even have any equivalent statements to insult the Ukrainians. And they are not inventing them now either.

In order to maintain its independence Ukraine must fight for it. People, just like you, have to resist extremism on the one hand and Rusification on the other.

Your calls reveal that the Ukraine is weak and struggling to maintain its artificial independence. However, that may just be a mascarade where in reality you are calling for ukrainization of Russian-speakers and other non-Ukrainians within the Stalin/Khruschev borders of present-day Ukraine.
Whether you admit it or not, extremism is widely practiced by people like you.

Remember, Russia will never stop being a threat to Central or Eastern Europe (unless a miracle will take place) and even more so to its immediate neighbors.

You're exaggerating.
This statement would suit Poland more than Ukraine, because Poland is in Central Europe and experienced Russian military blows in the past, almost as deadly as Polish blows to Russia.

Russia was never a threat to Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians, Croatians, Albanians or Slovenes. One Soviet intrusion cannot possibly discredit a centuries-old non-aggressive relationship.
Russia was always a friend to Romanians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Montenegrins, Macedonians and Greeks.
Lithuania was as much a threat to Russia as Russia was to Lithuania in the Middle Ages, mostly.
Finland, Estonia and Latvia became states when Russia did not exist anymore, therefore there was no previous animosity. Finland does not sponsor andy anti-Russian policies. Even though, they fought a war against Stalin, the Finns know that the enemy was communism, not Russia. Estonia and Latvia likewise saw the Soviet Union as a threat, however, today the two Baltic regimes practice Apartheid policies toward local Russians, similar to what's going on in the Ukraine. Ironically, these Russians did nothing against the countries in which they live. In view of all that, official Russia has not voiced any threats, but only complaints to official organizations and gov'ts.

If this continues, a new sub-ethnos would be born - the Baltiitsy. They would speak a mix of Russian and Latvian/Estonian. This is how Ukrainians formed under Polish-Lithuanian occupation, gradually assimilating their language into a mix of Russian and Polish and calling their land a Borderland, appropriately.

Belarussians and Ukrainians (Malorossy, Rusyni, Cossacks) were also friends more often than enemies of Russia. Today Belarus is joining with Russia in union. More than 50 percent of Ukrainians want to be in some sort of union with Russia as well, and less than 10 percent want never to be in such a union.

When I read your posts, Jarema, StatUA, Irinka and others, I know you are speaking on behalf of a small but very vocal, and in some cases, well sponsored minority of Ukrainians. The majority in the Ukraine sees Russia as a friend and they prefer to speak Russian, rather than Ukrainian.

So, consolidating all of Central Europe under your racist, militant and anti-Russian slogans will not work. Better choose different priorities.

If you give up the struggle for freedom and independence now, Ukraine will never reemerge. Russia will then have you and your nation for breakfast!!!

Since you still see a need for the Ukraine to "struggle for freedom and independence," [sic] then you should create an imaginary enemy that is keeping the Ukraine not free and not independent. But I can tell you immediately that Russia is not that enemy, because the Ukraine is no longer part of it.
Ukraine will only "reemerge" [sic] when it re-invents itself as an actual distinct nation that has nothing in common with either Russia or Poland. And even then all Ukrainians would have to agree on it. Ukrainization may do the job, but then you will have millions of hateful militant monsters, similar to Hitler Youth, persecuting those who disagree.

Perhaps Bohdan Khmielnitsky's decision to ally with Russia was not the best option ......

The communists also destroyed and distorted the image of national historic heroes and substituted them with new ones to suit the new state dictatorship. Woe to the Ukraine, which is doing the same thing.