russia and ukraine, get back together!

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

Kathy, since you edited replies of Ukrainians because of "personal attack", how about to stop the discussion about UPA in inappropriate place? Last time he put his blaming in business folder now it's politics and every one knows in history folder there at least ten suitable discussions.

I told from beginning he is about to create UPA discussion in politics. So how about to stop it before all the thread will be moved to history?



This anti-occupational organizations and their actions were rehabilitated officially by President Yushchenko and Parliament. There is difference between expressing private opinions on forum and signing supreme edicts. So you still didn't answer: is the President of Ukraine Victor Yushchenko pro-UPA fascist or pro-UPA pro-fascist?

Max, please accept Kathy's decision. She tries hard to keep the balance you and others disturb. Your 'codex' warnings are funny and inappropriate at the same time and they sound like unwanted censorship. You always have a choice not to give answers to Michael's posts if you do not like them. Max, be a good boy ha ha. Your remark suggesting moving this thread to a History section is maybe right but it is a minor problem.
I would repeat the same. One can never escape history assessment even if ten tribunals voted posivite or negative on the assessemnt of his deeds. At the moment, we have a fierce discussion about Lech Walesa in Poland and some people demand denouncing him as a traitor and a spy. The same applies to his opponent gen. Jaruzelski. It all sounds pretty silly because we need to separate legal and historic responsibility.

[Max_the_Highlander]

I think me and other guys are ready to discuss all this rot and forgery in history forum with no problems. All UPA discussions are reffered as history so they have to be there.

I remember the transition of topic like this from business to history so I just don't want this cool thread about Ukraine and Russia to be in history because of folks who even can't get clues about categories of discussions.

You chauvinist buddy B-PL has only two themes:

1. Polish belonging of Lviv.
2. Blaming UPA liberators as fascists.

Both this statements would considered in Ukraine as "crime against the sate and public order" or "intentional slander" accordingly. I dont think we can apply the Ukraine laws in online but from Ukrainian legal position user B_Pl is criminal.

I'm sure this user understands very well the place is inappropriate, his only intend is to show unrespect and to mock and vex local folks.

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

...
You chauvinist buddy B-PL has only two themes:

1. Polish belonging of Lviv.
2. Blaming UPA liberators as fascists.

Both this statements would considered in Ukraine as "crime against the sate and public order" or "intentional slander" accordingly. I dont think we can apply the Ukraine laws in online but from Ukrainian legal position user B_Pl is criminal.

Max, is that really so??? I can't believe my eyes and it reminds me Robespierre (an anniversary of FR took place just yesterday) and Dzherzhinsky. Are you ready to call a prosecutor here Max, trace Michael's IP and put him in prison? Do not be silly Max.
Max's proposals.....well, such were the beginnings of all terrible things taking place right after the October Revolution in Russia+Ukraine in 1917 or in Poland after 1945. My parents did remember the times when one could be thrown in prison or even exiled to Siberia just for making a joke on Tovarish Lenin or Stalin. Unbelievable? Oh yes Max, such things really took place. Yes I do feel uneasy now, reading Max's post. Tell me why Polishchuk is still at large? Yes, I am sure now you would like to see him in prison because he calls UPA a terrorist, nationalist and fascist-like organization (Polishchuk - Hirka Pravda on UPA). You would burn his books in fire.

You adopted the worst possible method of supporting your cause, Max.

[Max_the_Highlander]

Zbyszek, I don't understand your Chinese rhetoric... isn't the fascism and communism prohibited in your native country? You consider these ideologies criminal, right? In Poland unlike in Ukraine, you prosecute people who had relations with commy regime? You support when criminal ideology propagandists are legally punished, right?

All openly ideas against the Ukraine's territorial integrity are criminal and so their expression and distribution is criminal activity. The bunch of Russia politicians as Luzkov, Zatulin and Zhirinovsky are prohibited to visit Ukraine for their ideas about Crimea belonging. In case wit Lviv, it's the same situation and same law.

Then, after court or supreme power declared a man or organization is innocent and this was made officially, all fake accusations about non-existing crimes are the slander. And when you talk this slander openly you break the law.

We call it supremacy of law. And I talk only about Ukrainian legal position.

Btw, I'm not oppressing here Polish theme at all. Let's move boring annoying historic collisions to history and let's discuss hot current political problems. For example, we can talk about Polish national-chauvinistic government, Kachinsky's dictatorship, Polish-German fight, Russian nuclear rockets on American radars etc... These things will be just OK here.

[Kathy]

Originally Posted by stepanstas

I think that U.S.A.'s relations with Canada are completely different. Its not just an independence thing, we had a union with russia. (fake union).

The union was not "fake". Part of it is the result of history, and Ukraine always being under siege by enemies.

Personally, I don't believe that parts of Ukraine will unify with Russia. However, I am dismayed at the dysfunction of Ukraine's government. Nevertheless, it is better than that of Russia. Russia is able to flex more muscle, and to provide a better standard of living because of petro dollars.

Ukraine needs to develop a better economic policy built on human capital.

[stepanstas]

Kathy,

I see a union as uniting equally.

Look at the EU. Every member has an equal opinion.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

So you still didn't answer: is the President of Ukraine Victor Yushchenko pro-UPA fascist or pro-UPA pro-fascist?

Pro-UPA pro-fascist, definitively, he holds positive view of fascist organisations and their activities.

You chauvinist buddy B-PL has only two themes:

1. Polish belonging of Lviv.
2. Blaming UPA liberators as fascists.

Both this statements would considered in Ukraine as "crime against the sate and public order" or "intentional slander" accordingly.

1. I actually don't claim that Lviv does or should belong to Poland now - a city is more than a location and buildings, a city is above all the population, the life and culture created by it. Lviv was a Polish city before 1945, but then it has been effectively destroyed (in cultural, social terms) - it's population have been replaced by outsiders, now there's a Ukrainian city there, with a cultural history of 53 years.

2. The fact that you find calling UPA "fascists" problematic is really unhealthy, that's denial of reality. It's like as if a German would protest against calling Hitler and his men "Nazis"...a completely absurd protest.

Then, after court or supreme power declared a man or organization is innocent and this was made officially, all fake accusations about non-existing crimes are the slander. And when you talk this slander openly you break the law

According to Soviet official position and legal system, Soviet's did't commity the Katyn massacre, according to Turkish position and legal system, there was no Armenian Genocide - what would make Ukraine unique and different?

And this phrase "fake accusations about non-existing crimes" - that's trolling, trolling by stubborn and deaf-to-proof refusal to adjust ones position, despite the overwhelming amount of evidence.