russia and ukraine, get back together!

[zhuk]

I would like not to argue on the topic whether Ukraine should be indepedent or not.
Of course, it should be.
But INDEPEDENCE does not mean creating the barriers where no one need it,
Ukrainian medias are talking so much about Russian intention to absorb Ukraine, that it is getting clear, that they are too afraid of it.
No one would preffer that most questions to be settled in Moscow. Of course, we should be independent enough to solve all our problems on the local level.
But any kind of union or integration will surely be usefull.
it is pity, that my children will be foreigner and so has less opportunities to enter Moscow or Saint-petersbourg university. But it was rather simple for me just some 15 years before.
Russian films, TV and books are translated into Ukrainian, although everibody easily understand russian.
Is it reasonable?
Of course- we know, that half of cost (payments) of these translations goes to benefit of some persons, who are trying to say, that they are necessary.
Ukraine, in my opinion may be indepedent, but it must be in perfect relations with Rusia.
For me it is very amazing, that after the years of ethnic cleansing of Polish peoples in Ukraine in 1625, 1648-1652, 1798, 1920, 1939-44.
And now Ukraine makes attemptes to make friends with Poland.
I have very close relations with poland and my business depends on it. And I have very many partners there. But I doubt, that Ukraine has any chances to became European nation and member of EU for the 20 years at least.

[ricardo]

zhuk you may well be right there because I don't know that much about this topic. All that I know is anyone who raises borders also raises barriers to trade call them invisible or visible it doesn't really matter at the end of the day the effect is the same. And you probably right as far as trade is concerned, both nations should be working toghether to streghten bilateral (much the same as with Poland)relations and not drifting appart.

[zhuk]

Tnanks, Rickardo.
By the way, what does life in South america looks like?
Probably, there are or there were plenty of Ukrainians there. Why are you interested in Ukraine?

[ricardo]

zhuk
I'm not in Ukraine right now but all I can tell you and briefly to the point is life was great for all East European people in Argentina particularly but things have gone bad in the last five years of recession so it became a depression and it's really bad so many Argentinians migrate back to new countries and the countries their ancestors came from which is mainly Southern Europe.
Also Venezuela today is in difficult problems and the list goes on.

[titoman]

Ok, this is from book "From revolution to counter-revolution in Russia" by Ted Grant

I think it is very interesting.

Despite the crimes of Stalinism, the Soviet Union made great strides forward in dealing with the national question. Lenin pointed out that, in the last analysis, the national question is a question of bread. On the basis of the development of the productive forces and the movement forward of society, the national question receded. Within the borders of the USSR were 15 republics, with 100 nationalities and 400 ethnic groups. Sixty million people lived in republics other than those of their ethnic origin. The linking together of the economies of the Republics made sense, and was in the interests of all the peoples. By contrast, the break-up of the Union, and the crazy attempt to sever the natural economic ties between the Republics, has had catastrophic results.
The old regime rested upon the premise of Greater Russian chauvinism; today the pro-bourgeois government sees the interests of minorities and small nations as so much small change. The old bureaucracy, particularly the increasingly restive military caste, is pressing for an increasingly aggressive foreign policy. As we predicted, Russia has moved to reassert its control over all the former Republics of the Soviet Union. The right of self-determination is shown not to be worth the paper it is printed on.
The break-up of the USSR was not in the interests of any of the peoples. From an economic point of view it was a calamity. All the economies of these Republics were closely integrated with that of the Soviet Union. The newly independent states are therefore heavily dependent on trade with Russia. At the time of the collapse of the USSR, Russia's exports to, and imports from, the other Republics were estimated to be approximately 30 per cent of its output. However, the inter-Republican trade of the Ukraine was equal to 60 per cent of its output, whereas that of Armenia was no less than 110 per cent. By way of comparison, Britain's trade with the rest of the EU was about 22 per cent of its output. The Republics do not possess sufficient hard currency to be able to trade extensively on the world market, and any attempt to do so would have a catastrophic effect on the economies of all of them.
By using its economic muscle, Russia can easily dominate the other states. Already it has compelled many of them to join the so-called Commonwealth of Independent States. Where economic pressure was insufficient, Russia has used military force to destabilise various Republics, notably Georgia and Moldovia. A bourgeois commentator very nicely describes the tactics whereby Moscow advances its interests in the Near Abroad as they call the former republics of the USSR:
"As if by magic, secessionist movements have sprung up in many former Soviet Republics, all better equipped than the government they were opposing. A brief period of civil warfare ensues, before Russia intervenes to 'separate' the warring parties and impose a peace which, invariably, involves the stationing of Russian forces. Furthermore, most of the warfare starts and stops exactly when Moscow wants it to. The Abkhaz rebellion in Georgia, for instance, fell strangely silent the moment Georgian President Edward Shevardnadze signed a peace treaty that virtually conceded his country's independence."
By these means, Moscow forces various Republics into humiliating "defence treaties". Russian intervention in the Georgian republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia enabled Russia in March 1994 to sign a deal resurrecting Russian military bases on Georgian soil. The same was done in Moldovia in July 1992, and again in North Ossetia in November of that year. It was from here that Russia launched its second invasion of Chechnya in December 1994. The whole of the Caucasus is now back under Russian control, Moldova voted against reuniting with Rumania, and is completely subservient to Moscow, as is Central Asia. Belarus has opted to enter a close relationship with Russia, which amounts to a fusion. This was ratified in a referendum where 82.4 per cent of voters came out in favour of economic union in May 1995. Also around three quarters of those voting supported making Russian the official state language and bringing back Soviet-era national insignia.
In effect, only the Ukraine and the Baltic States maintain some kind of independence. But the present situation is extremely fragile and cannot last. Even in the Baltics, the painful experience of capitalism is having an effect. This was shown when the fiercely independent people of Lithuania voted out the nationalist government of Landsbergis, and elected the former Communist Party, which, among other things, stands for closer links with Russia. The fact that the CP leaders continued to press on with the "Reform", doing the dirty work of capitalism meant that this was thrown away. But it shows that in the Baltic states also, the workers are seeking a class alternative. In Latvia also, the leftwing Democratic Party did well in elections, as well as anti-Russian Peoples' Movement for Latvia, which will further inflame Latvia's ethnic-Russian minority. This makes up a third of the population, but strict citizenship laws mean many are denied a vote.




The Ukraine is the only republic which might have the strength to resist Russian pressure, with 52 million people, a GDP the size of Belgium and the third largest army in Europe. But the Ukraine, also, will be unable to resist Russia's embraces. The Ukrainian economy is in a worse mess than Russia's. So much so that a large part of the population, especially in the East, wants to join with Russia. That is the case, not only in Crimea, which subsequently voted in a pro-Russian government, but with the all important Donbass coalminers.
The Ukraine has practically achieved independence, but is still tied to Russia by economic factors, and a significant Russian minority (21 per cent) within its borders. Without access to Russian markets and raw materials (oil, minerals, etc.) the economy would collapse. The cutting off of energy by Russia had disastrous effects on the Ukraine, which if it had continued would have doomed the country. Even if it succeeds in establishing some minor markets in the West, this could not compensate for the loss of the Russian market. On the other hand, without the resources of the Ukraine, the Russian economy would also be in difficulties. The Ukraine was the bread basket and industrial locomotive of the former Soviet Union, occupying a position far more important than the Baltic States or the Caucasus.
The strength of the Ukrainian armed forces is also relative. No fewer than 80 per cent of its officers are Russians. Furthermore, the Ukraine is entirely dependent on Russia for oil and natural gas and is deeply in debt to its neighbour, a fact they were reminded of when Moscow interrupted the supplies causing disruption to both industry and private consumers. If supplies of gas were cut off altogether, one-third of Ukrainian industry would be shut down. In practice, Ukraine cannot stand alone against Russia. Probably, it will have to come to an arrangement, along the lines of Belarus. It was no accident that within a week of the 1991 attempted coup, Yeltsin announced the possible revision of the borders of the Russian Republic. And if Ukraine cannot maintain itself, still less will the tiny Baltic States be able to. The West may grumble and utter veiled threats, but in reality it is powerless to do anything about it.
The move towards capitalism in the Ukraine has been extremely slow. The majority of the economy remains in the state sector. Although the West gave $5 billion, President Kuchma appears to be dragging his feet in face of large-scale opposition from the bureaucracy, who are intent on holding onto their power. The currency has experienced massive devaluation, with hyper-inflation and the flight of capital of between $10 billion and $12 billion since independence. As the Financial Times (30/8/95) commented: "Four years after independence, Europe's second largest country after Russia has yet to stabilise the economy, let alone see the benefits of reform. After a good start, the economic overhaul faces mounting opposition from the powerful industrialists and bureaucrats who depend on the patronage of the state." The pressures will increase for a return to the "good old days" and closer links with Russia.
In an attempt to appease the military caste, Yeltsin has raised the issue of protecting the 25 million Russian-speakers who live outside the borders of the Russian Federation. If this was not sufficiently clear, it was spelled out by Valery Galeyko, leader of the Russian-speaking association of Pavlodar in Kazakhstan: "We need dual citizenship to restore the destroyed Soviet Union," he told the Financial Times (20/12/93).
Already most of the former Republics have come back into Russia's orbit. As The Economist (18/9/93) pointed out: "Six CIS members have been forced into signing defence treaties with Russia. Five have volunteered to transfer sovereignty to Russia in the hope of reviving their economies through reintegration with it. Non-members are asking to join the CIS, bringing them into Russia's clumsy embrace. Of the 15 republics of the former Soviet Union, only three on the Baltic--Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania--are managing to make a clean break."
This agreement goes further than a free trade zone. It means, in effect, that these Republics have "ceded monetary sovereignty to Russia, rebuilding the rouble zone shattered last year". In fact, Belarus has unified its monetary system with Russia's. Thus, everywhere, Russia is reasserting itself in its old spheres of influence.
Despite talk of "compromise", Yeltsin opposed the entry of Eastern European states into NATO, demanded the right to deploy more tanks along Russia's southern borders and threatened to break the agreement on conventional disarmament in Europe. In addition, he offered Russia as the "guarantor for peace" in the Former Soviet Union. "The moment has come," announced Yeltsin in March 1993, "when the respective international organs should grant Russia special powers as the guarantor of peace and stability on the territory of the former Soviet Union." (Izvestia, 4/3/93.) All this is a reflection of the rising power of the Russian military. Despite the acute financial crisis, defence spending in Russia virtually doubled in 1993, as a percentage of GDP, from 4 per cent in 1992 to 7.5 per cent.
In the event of the re-establishment of capitalism in Russia, we would see the rise of a ferocious imperialist power. Russia cannot be democratic and capitalist at the same time. A military dictatorship in Russia would inevitably embark on an aggressive policy of expansion, on the lines of Tsarism in the past. Apart from the Ukraine, which could also end up under the domination of a military dictatorship, the "independence" of the former states of the CIS would be largely fictitious. Inevitably they would fall under the control of Russian imperialism, by one means or another. Under capitalism, the Republics would not be able to resist the pull of the powerful Russian economy, which could draw them inexorably into its orbit. In any case, in all likelihood, a coup in Moscow would be followed by a coup in Kiev.
A deal would probably be arrived at to form a kind of condominium of Slav states, Russia, the Ukraine, and Belarus, which would jointly dominate a reconstituted Union. Already the Ukraine and Belarus have entered into an agreement with Russia to set up a customs union. The other republics have all followed suit. The granting of a greater measure of autonomy to the Ukrainians would be a small price to pay. It would be an uneasy compromise, but could hold for a time. A federation of genuinely democratic workers' states is the only viable solution for the peoples of the former Soviet Union. Before the war, Trotsky understood the problem of Ukrainian unity, and the aspirations of the Ukrainian people for a state of their own. Stalin united the Ukraine bureaucratically, under the boot of the Moscow bureaucracy. What was lacking was democracy and genuine autonomy for the Ukrainian people. That is why Trotsky put forward the slogan of an independent Soviet Socialist Ukraine as a step towards the genuine unification of all the peoples of the USSR on the basis of workers' democracy. That is the real way forward.

[iridium]

eastern ukraine is not ukraine, no wonder they want to join with russia. and to be honest, your communist flag really offends me, and i think your messages should be deleted.

to irinka, you're always quick to delete and edit the messages which you consider nationalistic and offensive to others. well, i think the communist flag is like a spit in the face coming from this individual to everyone who considers themselves to be ukrainian, both ukrainian speaking and russian speaking.


and you might quote your einstein all you want.. he was a jew, all the jews outside of israel are anti-nationalistic because they feel threatened.

ban this moron out of here please.

[Irinka]

Iridium, your messages are often very racist and months ago you've attacked perfectly innocent people with some very ignorant racist slurrs. I have asked you to mind your manners countless times to no avail, so I have deleted your messages that contained the above-mentioned verbal diarrhea.

I don't want Ukraine to get back with Russia and I don't like the communist flag, but I'm not mortally offended by it.

Irina