russia and ukraine, get back together!

[zhuk]

I consider that Ukraine and Russia will be much more successfull, if united.
the presence of high and uniq ukrainian culture and literature may not be the barrier for the union.
The two nations lived together for 400 years.

The struggle for indepedence in Ukrainian history is a myth, which always was only for immigrants since 1654 to 1954.
No one fought for indepedence. All the ukrainian Hetmans:
They were eager to be the Counts of Ukraine-so they followed only their own ambitions.All the ukrainian Hetmans:
Chmelnitsky in 1648 and Mazepa in 1709 were ready to give Ukraine to Turkey (Ottaman Empire).
Ukrainian cossacks never fought for indepedence as well- they were defending their own class priveleges.
Since 1991 ukrainian official history is making efforts to present the history of Ukraine as the fight for indepedence.
But if you will read thoroughly the history by Grushevsky himself (in 15 volumes, each some 300 pages) it would be clear enough. There never were any idealists fighting for indepedence.
in 1654 (Ukraine was one step from coalition with Ottaman Empire).
Russian and ukrainian may and should live together. United we will be much stronger.

[Timofei]

I mentioned these opinion polls under the Language heading, but this one is interesting for this question. I was kind of surprised by the results.

http://www.ukraine.ru/fom/26_03_2002/table06.html

Timofei

[zhuk]

Nice news.
Thanks, Tymofey.

[ricardo]

Hey zhuk!
There must be very few countries in The World whose independence was no questionable or arguable at that time or even now be it Ukraine or East Timor. However,this doesn't mean we should surrender all independent rights for the sake of an union because of a hetman or The Cossacks or The Otoman Empire, that is clearly "history" whatever the consequences now you live in an independent country called Ukraine so what format this proposed union may mean is very much open to debate and a poll is just a poll




[Edited by ricardo on 6th April 2002 at 12:05]

[dynamok]

We separated from USSR because the relationship with Russia wasn▓t working out for the last 300+ years, does anyone really think it could still work out. I can▓t imagine someone other then pensioner to believe that USSR was good for everyone.
A united football team would be kind of cool, but I don▓t think it▓s worth our independence.
Ukrainian culture is tied with the Russian culture but we also have ties with Poland and Belarus but do we really want to unite with them, NOT! Russia does not care if Ukraine is in good economic situation, what it cares about is its dominance over the ex-Soviet Republics. Look how they reacted when the U.S. came into Georgia, same with NATO in former Yugoslavia. Russia dominated Eastern Europe for the last 50+ years and they miss the feeling. No, Russia doesn't care if Ukraine is a rich and stable country, they want to own it.
And how could anyone say that Russia can help Ukraine, with what? Just because it has oil and gas, doesn▓t mean they▓re better of then Ukraine.
As far as the opinion poll goes look at the site it▓s on, http://www.ukraine.ru For sure it should say unite with Russia

[zhuk]

May be I has an opinion of an old soviet pensionier.
(In case, I am 33 and I have a company of my own, 7 workers and some US$80000 per month).
But I hardly see - who have won anything while departing from Russia.
I would like my goods to be trade not only in Ukraine, but south Russia as well.
The youth under 25 is very blinded by Nationalists propaganda.
please, make it more clearly to me- WHAT HAVE UKRAINE GOT AFTER DEPARTING FROM the union with Russia?
Simple people receive nothing except promises of nice future.
It was suitable only for the politicians, who from the local beuraucrats became National Governement.
What are the benefits?
Now we have plenty of bordera between close relatives and custom barriers between business partners.
The only thing we got is a national proud. How great we are. The kids are tought, that they belong to one of the greatest nations in the world.
It is funny, is not it?

[ricardo]

So zhuk! You have to fight with some beaurocratic establishment that replaced another just as old and corrupt. So what's changed practically nothing! You would say. It may not have indeed as you say but that doesn't mean the country as a whole would not benefit at all.
May be it means you should change your ways of doing business as most often happens in may other countries where factors of productions and capital move from one country to another perhaps yours may not be the only case.
It's a question of looking where your bulk goes and comes from and if it makes sense move on
I know this for a fact the country I live in, some of the industries moved offshore to take advantage of low labour costs or currency movements or export incentives and so on and leave the unemployed behind. Now this is assumed to be true if you are a price taker and not a market maker which I believe your not.
Unfortunalty it does not have much to do with indepencence but rather with interdependence which is much more complex that the young minds can take