russia and ukraine, get back together!

[The_Last_Word]

Andrej, you might find some useful information in this thread:
http://www.ukraine.com/forums/showth...?threadid=4486

It pertains to language issues in the Ukraine and gives some idea about how the people of the Ukraine felt about Russia.

Originally posted by Andrej
It won't be very sucessful. The cultures, languages and lifestiles are too similar. There is a difference in making a person speak German or Spanish over Russian, he could get used to that, but enforcing a very similar language would be extremely hard. In any case its never as bad as we tend to hear. It must be said that the Russian language will be a part of Ukranian life in the forseeable future, that in itself is not a problem. I think Ukranians should be bi-lingual. You know you hear this so many times, they ask, 'well we all speak Russian, why won't these people have the descency to learn our language'. I can understand that, but look at it this way. When an American comes to live in Lvov he would learn Ukranian out of curteousy and respect, because hes an alien, a foreigner. The situation is not the same when an ethnic Russian was born and raised on this land, why should he have to learn a foreign language just because now he is part of an independant republic, its still his land, the same land it was 10 years ago. I think Ukraine should follows Kazaqstans model and adapt Russian as an official language. It should teach both languages in school. It wouldn't be much of a hassle.

[The_Last_Word]

I think you got it all wrong, oh_no.

Originally posted by Oh_no
On some July day last summer, the Russian service of the Radio Liberty broadcast its programme "New Russian Issues" from Saint Petersburg. The programme was about current complexes of Russians and Ukrainians. Two professors from Saint Petersburg tried to sting Ukraine and Ukrainians in every possible way. That is by saying that Ukraine was formed artificially, that we are no descendants of Kiev Rus: after the Tatar-Mongolian occupation Rusichi went northward to the Vladimir and Suzdal land. Having listened to different and palpably agressive fantasies of the professors ...

I am not familiar with the two professors mentioned, and what their specialty is, but I don't understand what you call "sting" in reference to Ukraine.
That the Ukraine, Petliura's brief paper independence, the Soviet SSR, and the independent state of today, all were formed artificially is very true. It was mentioned in many other posts, even though it is hard for Ukrainian nationalists to admit.
That they are not the descendants of Kievan Rus is a private statement, but also has much substance to it. I am sure it probably refered to western Ukrainians, who were under foreign occupation for over 600 years, but were part of Kievan Rus for less than 100 years. Much of their cultural heritage has very little in common with Kievan Rus.
The migration of the people after the Mongol invasion does not play such a big role. Of more importance is the fact that Kiev was destroyed and depopulated and its culture was preserved by Moscow and Novgorod. Much later, in the 17th century, many Rusichi from the Dnepr area migrated to Russia, to the Kharkov and Sumy region. Their vacated Dnepr lands were later settled by those who came from farther west.
I don't understand what you call "palpably aggressive fantasies" because what you quoted has nothing aggressive about it.

...the wise radio host Anatoliy Strelianiy made a judgement: Russians and Ukrainians have principally different complexes. Ukrainians are trying to deal with the "dawn of the nation" complex, and Russians are going through the "dusk of the nation" and thus they ar nostalgic about the old times when Russia was the mighty empire.

Who are you calling "wise"? Is that your own naive conclusion? Maybe if a radio show invited two activists from RUKH or UNSO, conclusions would definitely be different. I would certainly call the host shallow for failing to address the issue of millions of Ukrainian citizens who considered themselves Russian citizens but in 1992 found themselves in a new country, called Ukraine. His so-called "dawn of nation" is nothing more than the dusk of native nationhood for more than half of all Ukrainians.
Your beloved host also failed to understand that the Russians have lost their ethnically and historically Russian territories. The issue is not the "empire" or the "Soviet Union." But in any case, there is no "dusk of the nation." The rebirth of the nation is comming and there is no reversal of this process.
The phrase "nostalgic about the old times" is a political and journalistic invention that suits particular political and nationalistic tastes. It does not reflect reality.

He went on saying something like "the great Russian power came to an end - and so did fall the empire. As painful as it is for us, Russians, it is time to get over the fact and devote ourselves to building our new Russia - and leave our neighbours alone to build their own future based on their own interests".

He, and you, are obviously wrong. The power that came to an end was Soviet power. Russian power has just begun, or shall I say, returned in a new form.

It is very relieving to hear that there are reasonable people in the neighbourhood believing in peaceful coexistence instead of "empire building".

Just don't mix it with countries, which are naturally big, like Russia.

[fatima]

God, our fathers fight during thousands of years for independance and they sons want to slaves again?`cause that´s exactly what will happen in case of the union, Russia has always seen Ukraine as its property, ukrainians as it slaves and ukrainian culture and language as a myth!U really want it back?
In addition Russia has a problem which is extremely dangerous - Chechnya, I mean does anyone of u would like ukrainian mothers to cry over their sons?And what about russian chauvinism and neonacism - do you also wanna have it in Ukraine?
And last but not least - Ukraine has more in common with Poland, then with Russia - so,why doesn´t someone propose the "UKraino-Polske Yednanne"?
P.S.I´m from Kiew and I´m not a comunist,neither a nacist.

[Andrej]

Perhaps you would rather overlook every positive aspect and your claim of closeness to Polish culture is questionable at the very least. An Eastern orthodox country speaking an eastern slavic language, in the capital of which 90% of the people speak Russian and the territory of which is composed largely of 'historic Russian' land with a sizeable Russian population. I think all that throws all the Lvov crap right out of the window, Western Ukraine = Ukraine, Ukraine as a whole = Russian land and Russian people of Ukranian flavour....

My grandmother was born in what today is the Trans-Dniestr region, when it was part of Ukraine in the 20's, she speaks Ukranian, and I have nothing against the Ukranian people. My grudge is with the lack of distinction, how can any sane person say that Krim is part of 'Ukraine', not the Republic, therefore recognising the Ukranian people and their culture you also have to recognise that in the Republic of Ukraine lives a sizable Russian population that is only 'Ukranian' by deffinition. Therefore does it not make sense to recognise their language and their culture within the Republic ? Until you do so, every Russian will feel that his uncle or grandfather who lives in Kiev, whos language is not recognised and who is listed as a 'Ukranian' is violated. You create descent social atmosphere for these people, put that whole SS Galicia crap aside and perhaps then, I and the next man will feel at peace with my relatives living in the Ukraine... Until then, they are livin in on occupied territory of the Russian Federation. Could I put it any clearer ? And I don't want to hear your thousand year struggle bullshi't, its as meaningless and as its counter-productive and only inspires hate within the hearts and minds of the innocent.

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by Andrej
Perhaps you would rather overlook every positive aspect and your claim of closeness to Polish culture is questionable at the very least.

....I think all that throws all the Lvov crap right out of the window, Western Ukraine = Ukraine, Ukraine as a whole = Russian land and Russian people of Ukranian flavour....

Hi Fatima,
Nice to have another participant coming from the very heart of Ukraine. You are new, so maybe you do not know that the issues you touched have already been discussed in many posts. However, I like that you participate, because I do not read here many Ukrainians living in Ukraine. Please, keep in touch. Please, study carefully the Politics and History tabs.
Andrej , I respect your views, but you are too hard on Fatima, I think. Telwan's (The Last Word's) remarks on future Russian strength just scared her.
I agree that Ukrainians should respect the Russian minority rights, not only in Crimea. For me, this country should be bilingual. In my opinion we(Ukrainian neighbours) should be a little bit more forgiving for this young European state, because it is our interest also, I mean Polish and Russian, to have a friend between. The very size of Russia makes Ukraine scared enough. Like many newborn states, they make infant-like mistakes.
Andrej, I did not catch on your "Lvov crap". Could you rephrase yourself?
BTW, it was to nice have your support against Zupbonz in SS Halychyna issue (History tab). Zupbonz is playing "Polish jokes" again, I think. His pricks are hardly ever explained enough. Honestly, I do not understand his grudge.
Fatima, I strongly support Polsko-Ukrainskie Pojednanie (reconciliation). I hope you will understand it when you read my contributions.

[mishaaverko]

As a newcomer to these forums I'm pleased to be reading some other Russocentric views besides those of The_Last_Word, whose contributions have been brilliant.

[Nickolas]

Jarema,

There will always be people who use the classic strategy of divide
a..-n...-d.... t.....-h......-e.......-........n CONQUER.

Some nations are strong, some are weak.

Everyone should consider relations among nations.

About Ukraine,

The country is united.

The 4 pillars are consecrated.

The prayer is answered.

Ukraine is Ukraine.

About relations among neighbored nations:
Ukraine, Poland and Russia, as INDEPENDENT nations, need PEACE and TRADE.
Historically and in the future, this will help these nations prosper.
More citizens will become happy.

Is not LIFE about happiness?

About Russia, they NEED to tend their own garden.

By the look of things, their backyard is in trouble.

Around Siberia's land, Russia has about 1 individual
per 17 km, its neighbor, on the other side of the fence, has 100 Chinese per 1 km.

YES, please study history...

The other name for Chinese in Mongol.

Perhaps, the better expression is relations among races.





[Edited by Nickolas on 9th February 2003 at 09:54]