russia and ukraine, get back together!

[The_Last_Word]

I don't think that's going to do it.

I know what they are trying to do. It's a good thing and it's right to do it to have good relations and friendliness between the two countries. It is also good for the national identities of both peoples.

However, they will inevitably come to a point where they will have to identify historic Russia and historic Ukraine. That's when they will realize that the east and south of today's Ukraine is a historical part of Russia.

Ukraine would be perfectly recognizable in its original 17th century borders, but not the present Lenin-Khruschev outline. Before the Pereyaslavl Rada treaty Ukrainian refugees were settling the Russian Kharkov and Sumy regions. After the treaty the Ukraine was outlined to include Kiev, Poltava, Zhitomir, Vinnitsa, etc. and became part of Russia, but Russia continued to grow and acquire new territories: the Black sea coast, Crimea, etc.

I don't know how the commission will treat those big events in history. I think they will just overlook them for the sake of peace and "reconciliation."

One professor said that Russian historians are in the "process of inventing a truly national tradition" outside the imperial (and Soviet) past. I think she is wrong. They are not trying to "invent" but rather to dig out the Russian national tradition. However, in our information age, anyone who attempts to invent a new version of history will most likely not succeed in selling his idea to the masses.

Originally posted by Lubov
Here's a piece that demonstrates that to some of you, rusophiles, are dragging far behind the recent trends in Russian historiography.

"The creation of the Russian-Ukrainian historians commission will also be challenged by a growing body of Russian historians who are more willing than Kuchma or Semynozhenko to move away from "harmonization" toward the reconciliation and normalization work undertaken by Poles and Ukrainians. Writing in the April issue of the journal "Nations and Nationalism," Professor Vera Tolz surveys the decline in attempts by Russian historians to associate the Russian tsarist empire or the USSR with "Russia," or to see Kyiv Rus as the first "Russian" state. Kyiv Rus is now portrayed with three capitals (Kyiv, Novgorod, and Lagoda), while Ukraine and Russia signing the Pereyaslav Treaty in the 17th century are described as different in culture, language, political traditions, and customs.

This development is the first attempt, Tolz believes, whereby Russian historians are in the "process of inventing a truly national tradition" outside the imperial past. Attitudes toward Ukraine are evolving from the pure derision aimed at the very idea of an independent Ukraine to gradual acceptance, particularly after the signing of the Russian-Ukrainian treaty in 1997."

The full version can be found @ http://www.brama.com/news/press/0207...kr-rus-history

NOTE: The article is posted for its informational value. No claims about it being the ultimate truth have been made so far.

We've exhausted the topic, don't you think. Right now we are milling the wind or "tolchem vodu v stupe" or "tovchem vodu v stupi" or whatever you might want to call it in whatever language you choose.

Let's see. The original topic was "russia and ukraine, get back together!"

My conclusion is that more than half of the Ukraine wants to "get back together" with Russia. Incidentally, it is the southern and eastern parts mostly, which were originally Russian anyway. The central part, the historic Ukraine, is not too strong either for or against joining with Russia, while the west is somewhat against Russia. I believe Ukraine should let go of south and east to join Russia and then a new chapter in its independence will begin with serious balanced relations with Russia and the rest of the world.

[Jarema]

"I believe Ukraine should let go of south and east to join Russia and then a new chapter in its independence will begin with serious balanced relations with Russia and the rest of the world" - TLW.

YES !

You are such an imperialist..... I have no other choice then to love you TLW ! (this discussion forum would not be the same without your precious input). Your point of view will drive any moderate Ukrainian into a nationalist. In many ways I am grateful you people exist.

This thread proposes "Russia and Ukr. get back together".

Now, it seems, you changed your mind. Getting back together is no more the desired action. Now you want to partition Ukeland.

How do you plan to on doing it ?

[The_Last_Word]

Originally posted by Jarema
"I believe Ukraine should let go of south and east to join Russia and then a new chapter in its independence will begin with serious balanced relations with Russia and the rest of the world" - TLW.

YES !

You are such an imperialist..... I have no other choice then to love you TLW ! (this discussion forum would not be the same without your precious input). Your point of view will drive any moderate Ukrainian into a nationalist. In many ways I am grateful you people exist.

This thread proposes "Russia and Ukr. get back together".

Now, it seems, you changed your mind. Getting back together is no more the desired action. Now you want to partition Ukeland.

How do you plan to on doing it ?

Don't kid yourself and others. To you any "getting back together" was out of the quesiton from the beginning. So what are you worried about? I have my opinion.

My "imperialism" is not much different from your own. Yours is much worse, however, you wish to rule over Russian territories and forcefully ukrainize its non-Ukrainian population. You are considerably worse than the Mongol conquerors on Ghengiz Khan or Hitler's Nazi butchers. You are pretty much in line with Soviet nationalization protocols which gave Russian lands to Soviet Ukraine to convert them to Ukrainian.

The land of Novo-Russia was Russian before and will be Russian again, whether an official unification between Russia and historic Ukraine takes place or not.

Historic Ukraine was also Russian before but it has its right to independence today and independent it can stay if it wants, but Russian provinces will be Russian again. This would only be fair to everyone, don't you think?



[Edited by The_Last_Word on 26th August 2002 at 23:38]

[Jarema]

Well, there we go.

Belarus had a unique chance not long ago to join the Rus. Fed.

Now, I undestand what do Russians mean by "getting back togather". It means being assimilated by Russia.

Perhaps TLW is right and only West Ukraine will remain as a UKRAINE and the rest of the counry will become Russian Federation.

Perhaps.

[Nickolas]

About history:
The most accurate history is written by historians using several eye witness reports from people
of that moment in time and then VERIFIED by different people of that same moment in time (if possible).

This is not 100% objective - but is the closest concept to written truth a human may receive
- except for a man filled with the Holy Spirit...

In this case, truth can never be denied.
Indeed, it's much faster then any e-mail!

And yes, I'm a Ukie too!

[Nickolas]

For no eye witness reports, the next best thing to do is to find the original letters written by the average person of the time period. Not vested interests, but people who have kept diaries, written letters to each other discussing weather - and so on - and hopefully the event in question. If the original news or information of the time was written only to friends or relations as letters, chances are particular truths will begin to emerge as more letters are found with matching information. This method requires much leg work and t-i-m-e. Perhaps, it will take a good historian, regardless of his nationality, a lifetime to find
enough independent sources of information to write an actual account of history.

Church records of a person's address may be of help
in this matter; particularly, when maps are concerned.

Anyway, good luck on your search for the historical truth.

[Aala]

Originally posted by jablo

oh my dear god, put the last sentence on a red banner and make the letters white and you have that banal communist hope

the union shouldn't be like EU, but, there should be a union,
and there will be a union, many ppl say so, and i totally support that,
europe's uniting, experts expect the americas to unite sometime,
and, as one of the ukrainian officials said on tv "the slavs will have to unite, because otherwise they wouldn't survive"
well i'm sure we can all survive by ourselves, but a union would help [/b]

There has recently been an attempt to unite slavs - in 1940's. Good or bad, we've got it enough. (I mean Czechoslovakia/Czechia, but maybe others,too).