Where goes Ukraine?

[Lwow_pl]

Ukrainian people are divided into two ( or maybe more) groups: capitalism - lovers, and USSR - lovers. But everyone first of all want to have something to eat, and to live in safe country. My question is: which road choose Ukraine: on west, or on east?

[ricardo]

I don't think you can apply capitalism - lovers, and USSR - lovers this day and age nor east or west tendencies.
recognition of where the country lies in geopolitical and geoeconomical terms would come from two quarters but none of them without deep reforms in business and social structure. If you look at the other end of Europe Spain and Portugal where not even considered as European let alone EU members not so long ago, but as always everything is viewed in relative terms and today both countries play a very important role in EU politics.
In business there is no such option but common sense and more globalization and regional integration is the norm.
These are not Hmelnitsky times for nationalistic tendencies I'm sorry but neither investors nor corporations see it that way.

Socially,I dare to say that what Ukranians aspire is to a good and a decent country to live in be this one or two or three languages spoken I personally don't care so long as people don't go hungry and there is at least a safety net for poor and vulnerable peoples and disadvantaged groups. This is what makes a country great to live in where it's citizens feel safe and grateful to live in it.
Currently Ukraine has not much of the above it would be pointless to strive to find a common ground to start the discussion without falling into historical antecedents and political bickering.
Besides, there are plenty of examples of capitalist (models)countries that go bust and communist countries well we all know what happened and it's well documented.

[V-G]

If you have a chance, read the book "The future of capitalism" by Thurow, if I am not mistaken.
The key point is that there is no guarantee that capitalism will survive, nor any other system. However the fact is that this is the most powerful system at the moment. There is no more threat of communism (USSR-lovers are lonely), and USA comes out as dominant country. All seems to be not so bad so long as one does not look at democracy as opposition to capitalism... how? I guess I will have to write it in my next posting, my work hours start in 5 min.

[ricknorth]

Read a book by Lester Thurow? Les Thurow?
"Less thorough" according to his critics.

Heh heh, had to put this one in here. Quote from my ol' econ prof at U of M MBA program.

Too bad Clinton sold the White House to China during his 8 years, instead of setting up solid trade lines with the CIS.

Hmmm, China, still communist, no human rights, highjacked and detained our military personnel, etc. etc.

Question here is, does Ukraine have a stock exchange yet?
Good and bad to it of course; no money to invest from Ukraine citizens, Westerners not willing to invest due to high risk.

I'd throw money into a property development certificate for the Crimea today. Whoa, the potential!!!!

Best plan for the Bread Basket of Europe. Sell the land there to Western Food Business such as General Mills, Ralston Purina, Nabisco, Etc. Productivity would rise 20 fold in a short time in the ag industry. Same for manufacturing. Big drawback, again, no Western interest to buy with risk of nationalization after investment.

[ricknorth]

No doubt the route for Ukraine is capitalism to aspire to anything more than a poor agricultural country.

In the US 130 years ago a bunch of crooks built the railroads, banking, steel mills. We called them crooks and robber barons and after 30 years of building the American Economic Backbone we introduced anti-trust legislation to "trust bust'em". But, Carnegie Rockefellar, Morgan, et al got America humming.

Maybe, the Russian Mafia will do the same, just a little slow out of the blocks. Let'em build it, then bust'em up later.

[Wayne]

You may have hit the nail on the head, construction man. The 'criminal' elements will concentrate capital, develop interprize, and then will need to have law and order to maintain wealth and position. More than one civilization has seen the road to development via this path. The first principle in a society's economic development is to gather capital. The second is to employ that capital into gainful enterprise. Enterprise creates jobs, goods, and services for the general public. Codification of law and then ethics follows at a later stage of development. First, garner wealth.

[ricknorth]

Tell all the liberals, people with money don't have it stashed away in a vault like Scrooge McDuck. It is being used to "turn the wheels".

If they have no money for capital now, and somebody gets some capital in there, its gonna start the flow.

I also feel that small business men with an interest can help much.

I also feel historians will look back in a hundred years and see that much interest in the CIS developed from West males seeking beautiful Russian women. In all likely hood a huge monument to the Rickster will be erected in every major city in the CIS. And my birthday, December 22, will be observed as a holiday. The Russian army will march in Red Square. MIG 19's will do a flyover over Minnesota. My body, preserved in a glass capsule along with Stalin's and Mao's and Churchchill's and Reagan's, will be stood upright and then ventriloquists will make dialogue between myself and the other lesser important dignitaries. Then, it will become a show broadcast on the FOX Network, "When Dead Leaders Get Caught On Video".

I am a God!!!!
No, until I went to Ukie last week I thought I was gude lukin. One week there and I see myself for what I am - big round headed Amerikanskee, British roots. Ugly bastard by Ukie standards.