Status Law

[JetSet]

I did a little more reading on the subject and cleared up my own questions. Thanks anyway.

[JetSet]

I agree entirely with Irena that the new law would cause some trepidation among Ukrainians against Hungarians residing in Ukraine, yet I think the new law (not so much a law, as a parliamentary act)is generally positive. Hungary is reaching out of its own pockets to help people who are not legally "Hungarian". In some way this is a step similar to create a bond between diaspora and the motherland (something Ukraine hasn't done, yet has seen the benefits of).

I don't yet see a negative effect of this Status law on any faction, so I am wondering if I perhaps missed anything?

[ISH]

Dear Irena,
By giving minority rights to minorities, the rights of the majority, are not "pinched ". These rights guarantee equality, not inequality. Think about it. If a Ukrainian speaking Ukrainian citizen has the right to study in his/her own language, then a non-Ukrainian speaking Ukrainian citizen should have the right to do the same, otherwise his/her rights are pinched. I am not saying that every single nationality and culture should have the same value in the Ukraine. No, of course the Ukrainian language and culture are superior in some things. Irena, no one is forgetting that she or he lives in the Ukraine and that she or he should be loyal to the state! Just because Hungarians want these rights to become real, it doesn't mean that they are betraying the state. These are not "special" rights, they are not favouring people, but they are giving some of the rights of the majority to the minority, creating equality. This is an internationally approved concept, and it is in the UN's foundation documents. The "kind of autonomy" is a form of "self-determination", according to the UN. Once again, these are not special rights. The "autonomy" would not be territorial, just cultural. The leaders would be elected by the people who live there, and I think the people have the right to chose their own leaders, don't they? I believe this is one of the building blocks of democracy. The "rayon" would not have any special rights that other rayons don't have. It would be a normal rayon, just the borders of the formal rayon system would be changed. And the Ukrainian speaking people would not have less rights in the new "rayon", than those ones who live in other rayons. Making it simple, the rayon would be better for ethnic Hungarians, (because their rights, written on paper, could become reality), but it would NOT CHANGE anything for Ukrainian speaking people. Their rights would not be "pinched" at all.
Don't forget that Hungarian people live their own native land as well. In a place like the Carpathian Basin it is really dangerous to claim that one land was only one nation's "native land", because of all the migration and assimilation that was going on during the time of history. Carps, Yazigs, Goths, Huns, Gepids, Gaeths, Langobards, Avars, Slavs and Bolgars lived there before the Magyars (Hungarians) came in A.D. 896. ( I am talking about Transcarpathia/Zakarpatska Oblast here) Then from the 13th century Rusyns (some people call them Ukrainians, other people say that they are a whole different nation. Either way, I don't want to start a discussion about it here. That should be discussed in a different topic) started to move there. It can't be seen clearly who's "native land" is it. I guess the wisest thing to say would be that all of those nations can call Transcarpathia their "native land" and there is no conflict then.
Well, I do believe that other countries ARE examples. Ukraine is part of the world and cannot be isolated or separated in such way. We can learn from others' fault, and from others' good examples as well. Lots of countries have minorities and they deal with them in different ways. Some do in a way that Milosevic did with the Kosovars, some do in a way that Italians do with Germans in South Tirol (SЭd Tirol). The choice is ours and we are the responsible for what we make of it. Giving rights to minorities NEVER EVER caused a single conflict in history. The same thing cannot be said about taking rights away from them. ( See the fall of Austro-Hungarian Empire) I am not saying that Ukraine is taking away rights from Hungarians. God forbid, NO!
The attitude of the Ukrainian government is really good towards us, (much better then what the Soviet Government did to us) and I appreciate it. All I am saying is that there is no need worrying about "giving too much rights" to Hungarians.
What do you think?
sincerely: ISH

[ISH]

Dear JetSet,
Well yes, there is a chance that the law will cause some "trepidation", but international experience hasn't "produced" such reactions yet. "You've got that right" (as one of my Canadian friends would say) about creating a bond between "Foreign Hungarians" and the mother land, and helping Hungarians who are not Hungarian citizens. I am really glad that you like it. I think it would be and excellent idea if all the countries in Central-Eastern and Eastern Europe would create similar Laws, and then there would be no tension at all, because every minority could "feel itself home" in its mother country. Well yes, maybe it's not really a law, but this is how politicians call it, "The Status Law", so I guess it's okay to use it that way. I am not sure, but I think I've heard some "gossip" about the Ukrainian government is thinking of creating a similar law with Canada. (considering that there are lots of Ukrainian speaking people in Canada) Is that true or it's just a "gossip"?
sincerely: ISH

[JetSet]

Hey ISH

It's been awhile, but as for the gossip I haven't heard many specifics lately with the UNC in Canada. Honourary dual citizenship for Canadians was one that I heard. It is significant, because right now, Ukraine does not allow dual citizenship, and that is due to the fact that many Ukrainians who still feel loyal to Russia (it's called the stockholm syndrome I believe) may try to gain dual citizenship with Russia. So extending it to Canadians would be a beautiful thing I think. Reality though, this is all talk- a pipedream if you will. The feasiblity of such a thing is unlikely. Oh well.

I doubt Ukraine would be thinking about extending any other benefits to Canadian-Ukrainians considering there are other things she should focus her resources on at the current time.

duzhe pohano, so sad indeed.

Jakym

[ISH]

Dear JetSet,
Yes, it's been awhile, indeed. I thought noone is really interested in the topic. There is a Hungarian saying that one of my eyes is crying, the other is laughing. Crying, because I've seen that lot's of people have took a look at the "status law" topic, but not too many had any comments. Laughing, because silence means approval on a certain level,
(Except for the "self-censorship" of the years of Communism, when people had "shut their mouth, close their eyes and blocked their ears" to stay alive.) or even if they don't care it's still good, because it means that they are not going to be angry with the Ukrainian Government if it will negotiate with Hungary about the issue.
Anyway, this is really too bad, that Ukraine is not planning on creating such status law or dual citizenship. There were plans for dual citizenship in the Hungarian Governments too, but countries such as Rumania and Slovakia were strongly against the idea, so I guess the MPs gave it up for the sake of peace. Well yes, "duzhe pohano, indeed"
Of course Ukraine has a lot to do with its economy and its society, but the reason for considering the idea of "reaching out to" ethnic Ukrainians, would be that, unfortunately, the ultra-nationalists are representing a huge proportion of the Ukrainian-speaking Ukrainian population, and certain politicians are using the "minority card" for gaining more power. I remember reading quite aggressive (and somewhat primitive, to be honest) responses in the newspaper, to the idea of a cultural autonomy for Hungarians in Transcarpathia/Zakarpatska oblast. The author of one of the articles was asking for an autonomy for Ukrainians in Hungary if Hungarians get it in Ukraine.(Of course the two situations are totally different and incomparable in such way, but I don't want to go into details now) So, I was thinking, if some ultranationalistic Ukrainians feel that other fellow Ukrainians are suffering from inequity and injustice, here they go, they could hug them to their chests in the Ukraine.
I know, autonomy and status law are two completely different things, but in my opinion, an Ukrainian status law would do good to for the balance, and those "trepidations" would not even occur, since Ukrainians would see the whole issue more of a "fair play". If you know what I mean by that. In conclusion, such status law would help to eliminate the dangerious radical forces in the Ukraine, which would help the development of a healthy democratic society, and would do good for Ukraine's international reputation. Indeed, I understand that presently there is not enough money in the budged for such thing. Well too bad. I would be really nice.
About the Stockholm Syndrome. Do you mean that the Communist regime of Russia (Soviet Union) would be the captiver and those Ukrainians who feel sympathy and obligation towards her would be the captives?
If so, would their Ukrainian-Russian dual citizenship be a danger for Ukraine? If so, how?
I can't believe that there are actually Ukrainians out there who want the Russians back, or at least they want really close relationship with Russia. What's unbelieveable that they are represented in the parliament. Seriously, that's weird, and it shows that how much improvement our society needs yet.
sincerely: ISH

[JetSet]

Hello again

I agree that status law would be a better approach than autonomy. I have witnessed in Canada examples of autonomy, and can easily say that a lot of the end results of establishing such a landmark decision as giving a people autonomy has extreme restraints due to the long-term nature of such a thing as cultural autonomy. Two examples are the french in Canada (who I actually like, apart from the very arrogant leaders of the Parti Quebecois), and the native (or Indian) population. There has been huge problems and conflicts between the majority representing government, and the minority french and natives. The benefits of the flexiblity of status law, as compared to such a provision as autonomy is huge. I question sometimes why Canada did not do this from the start (although treaties given to natives are similar to status law in many ways).

As for the Stockholm Syndrome, yes you are correct, the Russians are the Sadistic captors, and us the abused Ukrainians. Some Ukrainians seem to take a liking to the beatings ie the ones from ODESSA, but the REAL Ukies (the ones with the Cossack spirit) from the north, and especially the west, won't stand for it!!

Anyway I think "honourary" dual citizenship for Ukrainian Canadians would be a beautiful thing. It would allow more people to discover this amazing thing that is Ukrayina! As for dual citizenship for pro Russian - Ukrainians would create a negative effect on the nation, and create a larger rift. In other words I have no sympathy for the pro Russian in Ukraine. None. If they would like, they can be shipped to work camps in Siberia. It would be a very "Russian" experience.

I'll give the status law thing in Canada more thought, and post again some other time.

Seeya!