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Old 22nd November 2016, 21:24
Darco Darco is offline
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Why Ukraine chooses wrong heroes?

Regardless current difficult situation of the Ukraine including Russian occupation of significant part of territory, difficult Polish-Ukrainian history since XVII century, and i.e. dictatorial side of Józef Piłsudski, I continue thinking why UON and Bandera are still popular on Ukraine. Especially nowadays it seems to be strange when on one side Russia continues military actions and amount of Ukrainians working in Poland constantly increases. Even doesn't matter so much that it was done by Ukrainians against Poles mainly. This wasn't the biggest genocide neither on Ukrainian & Polish areas and maybe I am a little bit under impression of "Wołyń"(Volhynia) movie which is naturalistic, not a historical one and doesn't add anything unknown but... does anyone imagine i.e. Hitler monuments in Germany? Really doesn't Ukraine have better heroes?
Few citations from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massac...astern_Galicia
Polish: rzeź wołyńska, literally: Volhynian slaughter
Ukrainian: Ħ, Volyn tragedy
The peak of the massacres took place in July and August 1943. Most of the victims were women and children. UPA's methods were particularly savage, and resulted in 35,000–60,000 Polish deaths in Volhynia and 25,000–40,000 in Eastern Galicia, for the total of between 76,000 and 106,000 casualties.
The total number of Ukrainian civilians murdered in Volyn in retaliatory acts by Poles is estimated at 2,000–3,000
On 4 July 2016 a group of 45 active and former politicians, including former presidents Lech Wałęsa, Aleksander Kwaśniewski, and Bronisław Komorowski, issued a letter to Ukraine asking for forgiveness for the harm caused by Poles in the conflict. The letter was in response to a similar statement issued one month prior by various political actors in Ukraine, including former presidents Leonid Kravchuk and Viktor Yushchenko.
Of course these numbers vary a lot probably depending from nationality, sympathies and maybe even wishes which seems to be scary.
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Old 25th November 2016, 13:18
Hannia Hannia is offline
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Darco - Really doesn't Ukraine have better heroes?
Complicating the charge of genocide is the fact that the killings took place in the midst of armed conflict between Poles and Ukrainians in western Ukraine and between Poles, Ukrainians, Germans, and Soviets in World War II. The Ukrainians were organized in the Ukrainian Insurgent Army; the Poles were organized in the Home Army. Both sides also had armed individuals in the local police units that assisted the German authorities; Poles also enjoyed the support of Soviet partisans. Neither side had a state, and neither side was helpless.

In contrast, when genuine genocides occur, even if, like the Holocaust, in the midst of a war, the vast number of deaths are all on the side of innocent non-combatant victims, precisely because perpetrators of genocides are invariably states or state-affiliated militias that kill defenseless groups. As a result, states that perpetrate genocide suffer no, or almost no, casualties, while victims number in the millions.

Then there’s the question of who started the fighting and when. Scholars legitimately disagree on this point. One could place the beginning of hostilities in 1918, when Poles and Ukrainians first fought over formerly Austrian Galicia. Or in the early 1920s, when Ukrainian nationalists first engaged in political violence against the Polish authorities. Or in 1930, when the Polish police and army brutally “pacified” Ukrainian inhabited-territories of eastern Poland. Or in 1934, when Ukrainian nationalists assassinated the Minister of Interior Bronislaw Pieracki. Or in the late 1930s, when Poland incarcerated thousands of Ukrainians in a concentration camp in Bereza Kartuska. Or in 1939, when Ukrainians rejoiced upon seeing Germany and the USSR partition Poland. Or in 1942, when Polish nationalists killed several thousand Ukrainians in the Chelm region just west of Volhynia. Or in 1648, when Ukrainian Cossacks rebelled against Polish authority. Or a century earlier, when Polish magnates viciously exploited their Ukrainian serfs…

Whatever the starting point, scholars agree that both sides fought and that the local Ukrainian population greatly outnumbered the local Polish population, with the result that their losses were smaller than those of the Poles. Did the Ukrainians commit atrocities? Yes. Crimes? Yes. Massacres? Yes. Ukrainians must ask themselves some tough questions about just what some of their compatriots did in Volhynia in 1943. By the same token, did Poles commit atrocities, crimes, and massacres? Alas, yes, and Poles, too, must ask themselves some tough questions about just what some of their compatriots did in Volhynia in 1943. Who committed more atrocities, crimes, and massacres? The answer depends entirely on where you place the starting point of the fighting. In any case, if thousands or hundreds of deaths constitute a genocide, then the history of Ukrainians and Poles, like the history of all nations everywhere, becomes transformed into an endless series of “genocides.”

In an ideal world, Ukrainians and Poles would be asking themselves some tough moral questions, trying to come to some common understanding, and resolving to never let a mutual bloodletting happen again. Unfortunately, it is unrealistic to expect most Poles and Ukrainians to be reasonable and evenhanded about Volhynia, especially today, as Poland’s right-wing government seems determined to rewrite Polish history and settle old scores, while Ukraine is embroiled in an existential war with Russia. Instead, charges and counter-charges will fly, more and more “genocides” are likely to be discovered, and the real questions—what actually happened in Volhynia in 1943 and how can some closure be achieved?—will be sacrificed to endless and self-destructive overreaching accusations of genocide. In the process, the concept of genocide will be trivialized and lost in demagoguery, and Poland and Ukraine, two countries that should be the closest of friends, could drift apart.

Trivializing Genocide: A Dangerous Distraction | World Affairs Journal
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Old 26th November 2016, 21:10
Darco Darco is offline
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Originally Posted by Hannia View Post
Complicating the charge of genocide is the fact that the killings took place in the midst of armed conflict between Poles and Ukrainians in western Ukraine and between Poles, Ukrainians, Germans, and Soviets in World War II. The Ukrainians were organized in the Ukrainian Insurgent Army; the Poles were organized in the Home Army. Both sides also had armed individuals in the local police units that assisted the German authorities; Poles also enjoyed the support of Soviet partisans. Neither side had a state, and neither side was helpless.
I am not a historian and not pretend to be but it is well known that some Ukrainians cooperated with SS. I am not writing why and not really criticizing although would be justified cause of what nazi used to do. This is just a well-known historical fact.
In the contrast I don't believe in cooperation between Home Army and Nazi Germany. To be truth this shocking theory does not to be likely to be truth as they were obvious enemies fighting against each other during whole war period, many Home Army soldiers were interrogated, beaten and killed by SS which continuously tried to destroy Home Army during whole WWII period. Also many Polish civilians were killed by SS in retaliation.
For me this simplification seems to be going much too far and even biased.

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Originally Posted by Hannia View Post
In contrast, when genuine genocides occur, even if, like the Holocaust, in the midst of a war, the vast number of deaths are all on the side of innocent non-combatant victims, precisely because perpetrators of genocides are invariably states or state-affiliated militias that kill defenseless groups. As a result, states that perpetrate genocide suffer no, or almost no, casualties, while victims number in the millions.
Right but that's how technically usually genocide looks like. Doesn't even matter where, when.

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Originally Posted by Hannia View Post
Then there’s the question of who started the fighting and when. Scholars legitimately disagree on this point. One could place the beginning of hostilities in 1918, when Poles and Ukrainians first fought over formerly Austrian Galicia. Or in the early 1920s, when Ukrainian nationalists first engaged in political violence against the Polish authorities. Or in 1930, when the Polish police and army brutally “pacified” Ukrainian inhabited-territories of eastern Poland. Or in 1934, when Ukrainian nationalists assassinated the Minister of Interior Bronislaw Pieracki. Or in the late 1930s, when Poland incarcerated thousands of Ukrainians in a concentration camp in Bereza Kartuska. Or in 1939, when Ukrainians rejoiced upon seeing Germany and the USSR partition Poland. Or in 1942, when Polish nationalists killed several thousand Ukrainians in the Chelm region just west of Volhynia. Or in 1648, when Ukrainian Cossacks rebelled against Polish authority. Or a century earlier, when Polish magnates viciously exploited their Ukrainian serfs…
I don't know all the facts and i.e. in Bereza Kartuska there were also plenty of Poles. On page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereza_Kartuska_prison you can notice that many different groups were imprisoned. I don't disagree that there were many Ukrainians but in general problem was that due to different reasons Polish politicians in power, government and Piłsudski weren't "democratic to much" that time.
I don't say that Poles were perfect in both XVII and XX century but I disagree because WHATEVER took place in XVI , XVII century is another matter, battles in 1918, 1920 are another matter, rejoicing is another matter and mixing all of them together looks for me like Macierewicz "proving" of "assassination" of Lech Kaczyński. I think just that if somebody is not right, mixing all things together is a good tactics as most of people looses orientation. That's exactly what Macierewicz does, what Putin does etc.

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Originally Posted by Hannia View Post
Whatever the starting point, scholars agree that both sides fought and that the local Ukrainian population greatly outnumbered the local Polish population, with the result that their losses were smaller than those of the Poles. Did the Ukrainians commit atrocities? Yes. Crimes? Yes. Massacres? Yes. Ukrainians must ask themselves some tough questions about just what some of their compatriots did in Volhynia in 1943. By the same token, did Poles commit atrocities, crimes, and massacres? Alas, yes, and Poles, too, must ask themselves some tough questions about just what some of their compatriots did in Volhynia in 1943. Who committed more atrocities, crimes, and massacres? The answer depends entirely on where you place the starting point of the fighting. In any case, if thousands or hundreds of deaths constitute a genocide, then the history of Ukrainians and Poles, like the history of all nations everywhere, becomes transformed into an endless series of “genocides.”
I also disagree because:
- Not every non-natural death is a genocide. I.e. during WWI many soldiers were killed but on battlefields.
- Genocide was defined by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention
- You should consider that during genocide of Poles, other Poles starting from Home Army really had to do something to stop it. Do you expect Poles to be killed like sheeps without trying to do anything?
- What worries me most is that things are going in such a direction that because of complete lack of respect to victims in next few years some Ukrainian nationalist may be saying that during that genocide 1 Pole was killed and 30 mln of Ukrainians.
Of course genocide in retaliation is also a genocide but you shouldn't mix cause and result.
Of course Republic of Poland 1918-1939 wasn't "too good" for Ukrainians (Soviet Union also wasn't - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor) but it doesn't change 1943-44 facts.

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Originally Posted by Hannia View Post
In an ideal world, Ukrainians and Poles would be asking themselves some tough moral questions, trying to come to some common understanding, and resolving to never let a mutual bloodletting happen again. Unfortunately, it is unrealistic to expect most Poles and Ukrainians to be reasonable and evenhanded about Volhynia, especially today, as Poland’s right-wing government seems determined to rewrite Polish history and settle old scores, while Ukraine is embroiled in an existential war with Russia. Instead, charges and counter-charges will fly, more and more “genocides” are likely to be discovered, and the real questions—what actually happened in Volhynia in 1943 and how can some closure be achieved?—will be sacrificed to endless and self-destructive overreaching accusations of genocide. In the process, the concept of genocide will be trivialized and lost in demagoguery, and Poland and Ukraine, two countries that should be the closest of friends, could drift apart.
Right, asking themself moral questions rather won't happen although even Polish well-known movies(non-historical but anyways) like "Ogniem i Mieczem" or "Wołyń" show, doesn't miss self-criticism.
On the other side, what "Polish Sejm" in which most of votes have one party currently (also because of election Law in Poland) did, was a political act in addition done in a bad moment. They did it just to get additional votes not considering political situation, making damages to the case, neighborhood and reconciliation. One should consider that everything this party (PIS) does in Poland is a nightmare for diplomacy, economy, administration, law, constitution, democracy and rationality. That's serious illness of Poland which will probably last till budget collapses. I consider these people to be continuously demagogic, manipulating others and taking egoistic decisions, led by "not quite healthy" "over-prime-minister" & "over-president" in one person dressed in black more that 6 years after his brother death, probably not being ever abroad, used to be a prime minister of Poland, keeping his own money by his mum till the age of 60 (4 years before she died having 86yrs), unable to drive a car, not having ever a girlfriend etc.

Anyways I completely disagree to what this article says. Comparing what Putin/DNR does with genocide on Volhynia is tryvializing of genocide and naming it as "little more than deplorable acts of violence" is lack of respect just hard to believe! That's the real problem and horrible disappointment. Lesson not learnt.
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Old 24th February 2017, 10:15
Gavrilo Gavrilo is offline
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Originally Posted by Darco View Post
I continue thinking why UON and Bandera are still popular on Ukraine.
Why? Why do you ask, like that you don`t understand way of the game?

Anyway, let me tell you. Because somebody financing that way of thinking. Somebody who play on Ukrainian-Polish-Russian antagonisms and play games with all of them, with you. Manipulate you.

While children suffer.

But, we Serbians knows. New Commonwealth (ie Intermarium) is inevitable.
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Old 24th February 2017, 12:53
Hannia Hannia is offline
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By bringing together scholars and stakeholders from diverse intellectual and political spheres, Poland and Ukraine have cultivated an open exchange of ideas yielding coherent new pathways for the future development of Polish-Ukrainian relations.

Serbia as it stands today is nothing more than a fanatic bully, as it has been for a long time now.

Havrilo, Serbia has to deal with its own historic memory re the Kosovans and the Croats for example, before dictating what Eastern Europe might look like in the near future.

No doubt these issues can be tough, but it is best if the people directly involved find a way to compromise, recognize and respect each other.

Siding with Russia in such conflicts is very dangerous.
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