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Old 19th June 2015, 16:44
witkacy52 witkacy52 is offline
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Bandera and Polish history

Dear Ukrainians.

At the beginning I'd like to say (for those that don't know) that I fully support you with your struggle to freedom and in your rise against Russian dominance in Ukraine.

Talking with Polish people and reading comments on Polish news websites it's very visible that many Polish people still remember horrible stories that has happened with Polish diaspora living in Ukraine after 2WW (many Polish people has been killed). Those people often believes that nothing in Ukraine has changed since that time, that Ukrainians still worship Stepan Bandera who is pure evil for them. They concludes that while Ukraine has never criticized his actions in the past and because many people still glorify him as patriot.

When Poroshenko visited Poland last year he hasn't mentioned (nor criticized) Bandera with a single sentence, what was very welcomed and expected by many.

I know that this is a history and has nothing to do with a people living in Ukraine now. However I think that it should be resolved, honestly talked over and cleared to allow many Polish people accept nowadays Ukraine and get closer with her.

Could Poles and Ukrainians show their point of view?
How does this history from the past affect your current Ukraine view?
How much Ukrainians know about what happened and what does they think about it?
How do they think the problem should be resolved?

Wishing you all the best in your struggle with Russian aggression.
W.
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Old 20th June 2015, 06:13
MichaelB_PL MichaelB_PL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by witkacy52 View Post
Dear Ukrainians.

At the beginning I'd like to say (for those that don't know) that I fully support you with your struggle to freedom and in your rise against Russian dominance in Ukraine.
Unfortunately you believe in lies - they aren't fighting for their freedom, they're essentially fighting for the enslavement of Russian-leaning people for Donbas.

Quote:
Talking with Polish people and reading comments on Polish news websites it's very visible that many Polish people still remember horrible stories that has happened with Polish diaspora living in Ukraine after 2WW (many Polish people has been killed). Those people often believes that nothing in Ukraine has changed since that time, that Ukrainians still worship Stepan Bandera who is pure evil for them. They concludes that while Ukraine has never criticized his actions in the past and because many people still glorify him as patriot.

When Poroshenko visited Poland last year he hasn't mentioned (nor criticized) Bandera with a single sentence, what was very welcomed and expected by many.

I know that this is a history and has nothing to do with a people living in Ukraine now.
How can you say it has "nothing to do" with people living in Ukraine now, if a large part of those people worship Bandera and other fascists and/or war criminals from OUN/UPA as heroes?

I mean that CONTEMPORARY worship of fascists/war criminals is a thing of the present.

Poroszenko calls UPA "heroes":

Petro Poroszenko: OUN-UPA przykładem bohaterstwa. Czas rozpatrzyć nadanie statusu kombatantów jej żołnierzom :: społeczeństwo :: Kresy.pl

Ukrainian parlament honors Shuchevych, the commander of UPA during the genocide of Poles:

Tej hańby żadna wojna z Rosją nie usprawiedliwia! Ukraiński parlament uczcił minutą ciszy kata Polaków |

The above means that the democratically chosen representatives of citizens of Ukraine worship fascists/war criminals as heroes. There's no way to blame this on minority, isolated groups - this are democratically chosen representatives, the mainstream of Ukrainian politics, which are taking part in this.

BTW another thing, which is probably much less obvious to most people, but which is actually very important, is the nomination of W. Wiatrowycz as the head of the Ukrainian IPN. Wiatrowycz is basically a OUN/UPA worshiper, a historian or perhaps rather pseudo-historian, who's life mission seems to be the glorification of OUN/UPA and the whitewashing of their crimes. Nomination of such a person for the position of such an institution, responsible for the "polityka historyczna" of the Ukrainian state, shows clearly the that the "polityka historyczna" of Ukraine will be a pro-OUN/UPA, pro-Bandera one. Essentially, pro-Majdan Ukraine put a pro-fascist propaganda maker as the head of the insitution responsible for the state historical policy. Which means that Ukraine made a decision to make OUN/UPA glorification the official historical policy.

Ukrainian historian Hrycak heavily criticising Wiatrowycz and the nomination: Prof. Hrycak: Dyrektor ukraińskiego IPN usprawiedliwia rzeź wołyńską :: polityka :: Kresy.pl

Read the "Krytyka" section about Wiatrowycz here:

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wo%C5%...rowycz#Krytyka


Fools brainwashed by Giedroyc Doctrine influenced mainstream media might believe otherwise, but the truth is, anybody supporting Ukraine in essence supports "Banderowcy" neo-fascists.

And sure, there are normal people among Ukrainians, like Hrycak, but it's not they who control post-Majdan Ukraine, which is controlled by Banderowcy.

Witkacy, I think that if you are capable of supporting the people who consider murderers of Polish women and children "heroes", then there is something wrong with your sense of honor and dignity - or rather, the lack of thereof.

Perhaps you should watch what Kukiz has to say about that, perhaps it will help you regain your senses:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhjsDAi7v6c


PS. Also do look at this piece of Ukrainian STATE propaganda, presenting UPA as one of the Allied nations fighting III Reich in WW2:

Ukrainians in WW2

Last edited by MichaelB_PL; 20th June 2015 at 07:11.
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Old 20th June 2015, 12:35
GoodLuckUkraine GoodLuckUkraine is offline
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Haha witkacy52, setting him off again like that
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Old 20th June 2015, 12:52
Pontius Pontius is offline
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Witkacy52 just woke a bear from his winter sleep.
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Old 20th June 2015, 13:58
MichaelB_PL MichaelB_PL is offline
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Originally Posted by GoodLuckUkraine View Post
Haha witkacy52, setting him off again like that
Do you think this is funny in any way? I mean contemporary glorification of historical fascists and war criminals?

I wonder if you would find it equally funny if it were British/English genocide victims instead of Polish. I somehow think not.

Perhaps you should read this article from an Israeli newspaper:

Ukraine to honor groups that killed Jews in World War II - World - - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

The sick, perfidious irony is that they're banning Nazi and Soviet symbols (great), but granting legal protection to memory of Ukrainian fascists - even though their ideology and deeds were similiar to those of the Nazis. Not to mention that many of those Ukrainians actually helped the Nazis do the Holocaust.

BTW please not that the above is not about some fringe groups, but about laws passed by the Ukrainian parlament - the very mainstream of Ukrainian politics. So tell me GoodLuckUkraine, how do you feel, being a supporter of such a state, a state which officially recognizes fascists, anti-semites, war criminals as heroes?

Last edited by MichaelB_PL; 20th June 2015 at 14:16.
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Old 20th June 2015, 16:20
GoodLuckUkraine GoodLuckUkraine is offline
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I just believe in the ability for people to modernise and change and I believe the best way to help the people of Ukraine is to support them as they try to do so.

Your view seems to be that they do not deserve any help or support until every man, woman & child in Ukraine has apologised to Poland for the crimes of their ancestors and made it illegal to speak fondly of any of them.

But if we wait for that, no progress will ever get made.

I mean no disrespect or offense teasing you, it's just my way
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Old 20th June 2015, 18:48
witkacy52 witkacy52 is offline
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I've knew MichaelB will gladly articulate his opinions here (thank you Michael). He is one of the people I meant.
Could some Ukrainians now respond how do they see the issue (if they see it at all) and how it should be dealt with. Is the policy of silence from Mr. Poroshenko a good way to do that. If not, what is the best way. Do they know about those 2ndWW histories at all (which are quite alive for some people in Poland).


There are too many people in Poland sharing the views that MichaelB shows.
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