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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 24th June 2015, 23:34
Neward Thelman Neward Thelman is offline
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It seems that during my brief absence, an anti-Ukrainian twit calling himself "Michael B" has raised his ugly head.

Unfortunately, due to severe time contraints, I won't have time tonight to disassemble the bohay's various ravings piece by piece, but looking over this thread briefly, it seems that he doesn't bother to read the well reasoned and well documented replies posted to his frothing-at-the-mouth schizoid ranting.

But, nevertheless, I'll have to respond, with, as the US Marines say, extreme predjudice. It's sort of like having to dispatch some syphilitc Pecheneg horde commander who suddently got it into his head to attack Kyiv. You have to defeat scum such as that.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 25th June 2015, 01:08
MichaelB_PL MichaelB_PL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neward Thelman View Post
It seems that during my brief absence, an anti-Ukrainian twit calling himself "Michael B" has raised his ugly head.

Unfortunately, due to severe time contraints, I won't have time tonight to disassemble the bohay's various ravings piece by piece, but looking over this thread briefly, it seems that he doesn't bother to read the well reasoned and well documented replies posted to his frothing-at-the-mouth schizoid ranting.

But, nevertheless, I'll have to respond, with, as the US Marines say, extreme predjudice. It's sort of like having to dispatch some syphilitc Pecheneg horde commander who suddently got it into his head to attack Kyiv. You have to defeat scum such as that.
1. It's crazy how you people act in a inappropriate manner, posting insults and at the same time slandering me, by more or less attributing your own behaviour to my person. I understand that you people are fanatical supporters of Ukraine, but attributing your own behaviours (ranting, etc) to another person is kind of pointless.

2. As for "well reasoned" and "well documented" replies - I think you're one of those fanatically pro-Ukrainian people, who treat every pro-Ukrainian reply positively and every anti-Ukrainian one negatively.

3. Perhaps instead of insulting me, you should adress the issue of how worship of fascists and war criminals from OUN/UPA is affecting Polish-Ukrainian relations.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 25th June 2015, 12:49
witkacy52 witkacy52 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL View Post
Fortunately, some people like me or Kukiz (...)

Michael, stop wiping out your face with Kukiz.
He and his opinions has nothing to do with yourself.
What he says is that we shouldn't forget victims of the massacres, and that open debate on that is necessary to fully reunite our countries in the future. And this is what we all agree.

But this is what also he've said:

In Polish:

Paweł Kukiz: - W tej chwili naszym priorytetem jest wspieranie Ukrainy, zgodnie z chrześcijańską zasadą: zło dobrem zwyciężaj. Nasze zaangażowanie zaprocentuje w przyszłości więzami krwi. Zresztą już Józef Piłsudski mówił, że nie ma wolnej Polski bez wolnej Ukrainy i wolnej Ukrainy bez wolnej Polski. Nam powinno zależeć na budowie namiastek pojednania polsko ukraińskiego. Jednocześnie, w życiu nie wolno nam zapomnieć o zbrodniach Bandery i UPA. Można wybaczyć, ale należy rozliczyć.
(...)
- Jest jeszcze jeden warunek pojednania, wzajemne wyspowiadanie się naszych dwóch narodów ze swoich win. My Polacy traktowaliśmy Ukraińców jak obywateli drugiej kategorii. Mój dziadek policjant, żeniąc się z moją babcią, która pochodziła z mieszanego domu polsko-ukraińskiego, musiał mieć zezwolenie swojej „góry” na ślub z Ukrainką. Ponadto nie dopuszczaliśmy Ukraińców do edukacji, nazywaliśmy ich „ukraińskimi chochołami”, wynaradawialiśmy ich. Przecież policja chodziła po domach i sprawdzała kto mówi po polsku. To wszystko musiało eksplodować.

"Co nie tłumaczy rzezi, jaką ukraińscy nacjonaliści sprawili Polakom."

Paweł Kukiz: - Oczywiście. Nic tego nie usprawiedliwia, a formy tych mordów były dramatyczne. Jeszcze raz przytoczę kolejną scenę z Uhnowa… Właśnie w tej miejscowości urodzili się dwaj bandyci bracia Onyszkiewicze, którzy zasłynęli z nabijania na sztachety dzieci i kobiety. Stałem z Ihorem pod tablicą poświęconą Onyszkiewiczom i tłumaczyłem mu, że to nie są bohaterzy tylko bandyci. Ihor na to, że tamte czasy to była wojna i wszystko jest usprawiedliwione, sam siebie chciał zakrzyczeć stanowczością swego twierdzenia. Rozmawialiśmy, a obok bawiła się dziewczyna, miała może sześć, siedem lat. Wskazałem na dziewczynkę i powiedziałem: Ihor, „wolność” zbudowana na krwi kobiet i dzieci, to nie jest wolność. Taka „wolność” jest dana od szatana. Prędzej czy później tego typu „wolność” się mści totalną niewolą, poniżeniem, po prostu karą. Mam wrażenie, że Ihor zrozumiał, co mu chciałem przekazać.

"W Kijowie mówił pan że kropla drąży skałę i być może kiedyś Ukraińcy dojdą do wniosku, że Bandara czy bracia Onyszkiewiczowie, to nie są ludzie, których można nazwać bohaterami."

Paweł Kukiz:- Na pewno tak się nie stanie, jeśli Ukraina zostanie pod wpływami Rosji, która wciąż robi wszystko, by nas skłócać. Przecież ewentualna federacja Ukrainy i Polski, to byłaby potęga mająca sto milionów obywateli. Taki organizm były podmiotem światowej polityki a nie przedmiotem. Niestety, i Ukraina, i Polska są obecnie przedmiotami rozgrywanym przez Wschód i Zachód.

(...)

"Jednak sama modlitwa nie wystarczy."

- Trzeba więc robić choćby to, co robi Stowarzyszenie Pokolenie i Przemek Miśkiewicz, zbiórki odzieży i pieniędzy dla majdanowiczów. Zapyta pan, co ja robię. Jeżdżę tam, wożę im choćby ciepłe ubrania. Cały czas utrzymuję z moimi przyjaciółmi na Ukrainie kontakt. Zbieram pieniądze wśród kolegów, organizuję zakupy. To wszystko należy przewieść przez granicę, wcześniej trzeba załatwić listy przewozowe itd. itd. Podczas ostatniego mojego wyjazdu na Ukrainę nie spałem przez ponad dobę, cały czas byłem za kółkiem, z duszą na ramieniu. Wracam do domu totalnie wykończony, włączam komputer a tam email na skrzynce od jednego z kolegów „Przyłącz się do pomocy Ukrainie i podpisz petycję, którą podpisał Biedroń, ten i tamten…”. Ręce mi opadły. Przecież ta petycja niczego nie zmieni oprócz tego, że łata sumienie.



English translation


Paul Kukiz: - At the moment, our priority is supporting Ukraine in accordance with the Christian principle: overcome evil with good. Our commitment will pay off in the future with a blood relation. Jozef Pilsudski already said that Poland can not be free without a free Ukraine and Ukraine can not be free without a free Poland. We should start building Polish-Ukrainian reconciliation. But at the same time, we must not forget the crimes of Bandera and UPA. We can forgive, but it must be cleared.

(...) One more thing is necessary for reconciliation - it's mutual confession of our two nations for its quilts. We, Poles has treated Ukrainians as second-class citizens. My grandfather who was a policeman, marrying my grandmother, who came from a mixed Polish-Ukrainian home, had to have permission from the authorities to marry a Ukrainian. Moreover, we didn't allow Ukrainians to education, we called them "the Ukrainian (straw mulch stacks)", we've been denationalizing them. Police was visiting houses checking who speaks Polish. It all had to explode.

Question: "But it does not explain the carnage that Ukrainian nationalists made to the Poles."

Paul Kukiz: - Of course. Nothing can justify that. Forms of these murders were horrible. It remids me of another scene from Uhniv. In this village two bandits brothers Onyszkiewicz were born, who later became famous with punching children and women on the fence rails. I stood with Ihor at the commemorative plaque dedicated to Onyszkiewicz brothers and explained to him that they are not heroes but just bandits. Ihor said that it was a war and everything was justified. He raised his voice trying to convince himself. While we talked there was a little girl playing next door, she was maybe six years old. I've pointed at the girl and said: Ihor, when "freedom" is built on the blood of women and children, it is not freedom. Such "freedom" is given from Satan. Sooner or later this kind of "freedom" will takes its revenge with total bondage, humiliation and punishment. I think Ihor understood what I wanted to convey him.

Question: "In Kiev you said that the constant dripping wears the stone, and perhaps one day Ukrainians come to the conclusion that the brothers Bandara Onyszkiewicz are people who can't be called heroes."

Paul Kukiz: - For sure this will not happen if Ukraine is under Russia influence. Russia still does everything to argue us (?). If Ukraine and Poland made a federation, it would be the power of hundred million citizens. That would be the subject of world politics and not the object. Unfortunately both Ukraine and Poland are now objects being played by the East and the West.

(...)

Question: "What else should we do other than praying for them"

We must do what Generation Association and Przemek Miśkiewicz does - collect clothes and money for Maidan people. You ask what I'm doing. I go there, I deliver them warm clothes. All the time I keep with my friends in Ukraine in touch. I collect money among my colleagues, I organize purchases. This all needs bo to carried across the border, there are also a lot of formalities to do before. During my last trip to Ukraine I didn't sleep for more than day, the whole time I was behind the wheel with a soul on my shoulder. I came home totally exhausted, turned on the computer and has found an e-mail from one of my colleagues "Join assistance to Ukraine and sign the petition, which was signed by Biedroń, this and that ...". It was enough. After all, this petition will not change anything except the signer conscience.



Michael, don't answer, you keep repeating yourself.



PS
Any improvements in my quick translation needed - let me know.

PS2
Note Michael, Kukiz grandgrandfather or grandgrandmother was Ukrainian

Last edited by witkacy52; 26th June 2015 at 09:59.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 25th June 2015, 15:19
Hannia Hannia is offline
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Witkacy52. Nicely articulated. It is because I know that there are Polish people like yourself and Pontius w/your views, that I continue to answer questions, for all and everyone that comes into a forum searching for their Polish roots, w/o prejudice.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 26th June 2015, 01:07
dobko dobko is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL View Post
1. It's crazy how you people act in a inappropriate manner, posting insults and at the same time slandering me, by more or less attributing your own behaviour to my person. I understand that you people are fanatical supporters of Ukraine, but attributing your own behaviours (ranting, etc) to another person is kind of pointless.

2. As for "well reasoned" and "well documented" replies - I think you're one of those fanatically pro-Ukrainian people, who treat every pro-Ukrainian reply positively and every anti-Ukrainian one negatively.

3. Perhaps instead of insulting me, you should adress the issue of how worship of fascists and war criminals from OUN/UPA is affecting Polish-Ukrainian relations.
1. You openly call everyone a liar and insult them continually.

2. You proved this by yet another insult. You think too highly of yourself, no matter how hard you try to sound intelligent the outcome is always the same. Childish and immature.

3. No matter how politely, respectfully, and intelligently you are answered. You just don't get it. Seems like EVERYONE else does though. Why is that? Do you actually have a cognitive learning disability?

4. Have you noticed that no other Polish person supports your extremist views?

6. Tick, tick, tick.... that is the sound of your time on these boards winding down. Grow up or.... the clock will stop.


The next post is your choice. Be respectful or be gone. moja babcia by cię zbić
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 26th June 2015, 10:08
MichaelB_PL MichaelB_PL is offline
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First of all Dobko, you've deleted my post proving that Witkacy is wrong. "Nice" job as a biased moderator.

He's quoting the views of Kukiz from 2014, before the glorification of OUN/UPA by the new, post-Maidan president and parlament, and in the deleted post I pointed out that Kukiz changed his views after those events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dobko View Post
1. You openly call everyone a liar and insult them continually.
1. Problem is, many people on this board often lie, often by repeating Ukrainian propaganda view on one matter or another. And you are now shifting the blame from the real culprits (people who lie) to me (person who's pointing that out).

Why? It's obvious - because the lies in question are usually Ukrainian propaganda and you yourself are Ukrainian - it's a simple case of "support my own people at the expense of objectivity" from your side.

2. How is it that you ignore numerous insults and even throw them yourself, but are criticising me for pointing out some lies? A moderator should be impartial and guard the forum rules, not ignore every rude behaviour, as long as the person doing it Ukrainian or pro-Ukrainian.

Quote:
2. You proved this by yet another insult. You think too highly of yourself, no matter how hard you try to sound intelligent the outcome is always the same. Childish and immature.
As for the above - I point out things which are true but which you don't want to hear, so you don't like it, but instead of admitting that, you prefer to label me negatively.

Quote:
3. No matter how politely, respectfully, and intelligently you are answered. You just don't get it. Seems like EVERYONE else does though. Why is that? Do you actually have a cognitive learning disability?
Get what? That many people on this board don't want to hear anything else than strongly pro-Ukrainian point of view? That they react with dishonesty, insults and agression at anyone contradicting the pro-Ukrainian point of view?

It's not like I'm the only one targeted by those things - Szary, Siefert and Tkach also were insulted many times. Common denominator: bigger or lesser degree of criticism toward Ukraine.

Quote:
4. Have you noticed that no other Polish person supports your extremist views?
Have you noticed how:

1. Some supposedly Polish members imply that my views are very rare among Poles and somehow excluded from public debate.

2. I've quoted a very popular Polish politician saying similiar things on Polish TV. To make things more crazy, one of the members from #1 actually voted for that politician.

BTW Witkacy's refutal of this is incorrect, since he is bringing up quotes from 2014, before the honoring of OUN/UPA by Poroshenko/UA parlament, while I was quoting from 2015, when Kukiz says he has lost the will to support Ukraine because of those events.

Quote:
6. Tick, tick, tick.... that is the sound of your time on these boards winding down. Grow up or.... the clock will stop.
The problem is, you write "Grow Up", but what you really mean is "Don't contradict the pro-Ukrainian point of view". You're essentially implementing pro-Ukrainian censorship, dishonestly framing it as reaction to my "wrongdoing". In reality however, I could act much, much worse, insulting people with no provocation at all and get away with it - IF I were Ukrainian or at least pro-Ukrainian. Real life example: Hannia. How many times did she insult other members? 50? 100? 200? Somehow no "Tick tick tick" for her. Why?

Quote:
The next post is your choice. Be respectful or be gone. moja babcia by cię zbić
What kind of choice do I have? It's not really about being respectful, it's about dishonest action to surpress a poster contradicting pro-Ukrainian point of view.

You are dishonest about it, trying to keep pretense of a justified moderator action, while in reality applying pro-Ukrainian censorship and biased standards. Tolerance of insults directed at me and even insulting me yourself is a proof. Tolerating Hannia's insulting behaviour over the years, directed at different members is proof even more.

I'd wish that the forum had standards for being respectful that would be the same for everybody, but that is not the case, with Hannia being a drastic example.

As for the choice you're supposedly giving me - the problem is that your words do not match your actions. What you really want is supression of my views, not enforcement of civility, the rest is just pretense.

Even in this thread, I was more civil to my opponents than they were toward me. And yet you're going to ban me? Total lack of impartiality.

I will quote some "respectful" quotes from this thread directed at me:

"Michael, you are an arrogant ass who thinks he knows history." (your own words Dobko!)
"anti-Ukrainian twit calling himself "Michael B" has raised his ugly head" (Neward Thelman)
"And find him a good psychiatrist before it's too late." (Witkacy52)
"Unless you want to act as drunken Russian in public place. Actually, you do this. " (Pontius)


But of course, since those are all Ukrainian or pro-Ukrainian members, it will be tolerated. Just like Hannia's insulting behaviour was tolerated throughout the years.

Sure, I was disrespectful sometimes - but that's not the reason you want to ban me. And you're dishonest about it, because in reality you tolerate disrespectful behaviour, as long as it's coming from Ukrainian or pro-Ukrainian members.

Last edited by MichaelB_PL; 26th June 2015 at 10:24.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 26th June 2015, 11:25
witkacy52 witkacy52 is offline
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Michael, you just don't get it.
If _everybody_ thinks you're an ashole there is a chance you probably are.
But no offense, you still can grow. I wish you that, for your own and whole the world sake.

You really think that you've proven anything with a single Kukuz sentence said in a hurry in time-is-almost-over interview?
Would 20% of Poles vote for a person changing his views 180 degrees within a year?
Listen more, shout less.

Tell us - what is your reason being here, what do you want to achieve?
We already know your point of view. What next?
Think that thoroughly and answer wisely. As wise as you can.

I'd like to dedicate you a song.
Listen carefully. Think.

I'm affraid moja babcia by cię zbić too.
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