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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 24th June 2015, 10:07
witkacy52 witkacy52 is offline
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Summarizing. Knowing that 'Wolyn massacre' issue is still 'unresolved', 'uncommented by history' and creates high negatives emotions in some Polish people and causes them mixing history with current times and people - what dear Ukrainians thinks is the best way to deal with it now.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 24th June 2015, 12:41
MichaelB_PL MichaelB_PL is offline
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Originally Posted by witkacy52 View Post
Summarizing. Knowing that 'Wolyn massacre' issue is still 'unresolved', 'uncommented by history' and creates high negatives emotions in some Polish people and causes them mixing history with current times and people - what dear Ukrainians thinks is the best way to deal with it now.
One thing should be added to the above - Volyn massacre is one thing, contemporary worship of organisations responsible for it is another. So it's not exactly mixing history with current times and people - it's more like part of contemporary Ukrainians is actively "mixing" themselves with fascists and war criminals, by proclaiming them to be "their heroes".
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 24th June 2015, 14:04
Pontius Pontius is offline
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Bandera is not a reason for Kukiz, why Poland should not support MILITARY Ukraine.

A reason for him, actually good one, is that we are not able to help without being guaranteed that we will be supported by NATO in case of potential counterattack from Russia. He says, that in first place the USA and other powerful countries should send guns or even soldiers - only then it would be worth of debate. These countries have more military potential than Poland and helping Ukraine without Ukraine receiving such help from other countries will be suicidal act.

Secondly, he mentions that Poland was ignored by other countries during every single meeting, such as Minsk. And while no one takes Poland seriously, he will not take seriously the others and have no reason to do anything. For example, making Bandera a hero, when Ukrainian government knows exactly how majority of Poles feel about this shows exactly, how Ukrainian government perceive Poles.

On the other hand he supports the idea of humanitarian help for both sides of a conflict, and so-called "Bandera cult" does not influences his views on that matter, even though his views on Bandera are similiar to yours. The difference between you and Kukiz here is that Kukiz do not see in the context of Bandera the prime point. It is not a reason for anything - his reasons are more logical. You are here only to continue your "mission". And Kukiz mission is much more important than yours.

Post Scriptum Dobko - Warka and Królewskie are much better beers than Redd's. Such thesis may be followed by an argument, that they taste like beer ;p
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 24th June 2015, 16:40
MichaelB_PL MichaelB_PL is offline
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Originally Posted by Pontius View Post
Bandera is not a reason for Kukiz, why Poland should not support MILITARY Ukraine.

A reason for him, actually good one, is that we are not able to help without being guaranteed that we will be supported by NATO in case of potential counterattack from Russia.
(...)
Secondly, he mentions that Poland was ignored by other countries during every single meeting, such as Minsk.
It seems that you either saw different materials than I did, OR you're once again manipulating. He does mention other reasons (also valid IMO), but as I understand him, he mentions cult of OUN/UPA as one of them.

It's really interesting in the context of the nonsense you wrote previously - about me supposedly going to get "ignored by society" and "excluded from every political debate" because of my stance. Kukiz is a very popular politician and he's bringing up the same issue in public debate - exposing your previously mentioned view as nonsense.

Kukiz: Precz z UPA i OUN-em! | Telewizja Republika

""Ja pomagałem i będę pomagać ludziom, którzy tej pomocy potrzebują. Ale nie bandytom. NEVER. Precz z UPA i OUN-em!” - wskazuje i kwituje swój wpis słowami: „Precz z rządem i politykami, którzy nie reagują na próby uczynienia z bandyty wzorca dla ukraińskiej młodzieży. Hańba i dno”."

For people who don't understand Polish:

"I was helping and will help people who need help. But not bandits. NEVER. Away with UPA and OUN!" - he says and summarises his comment with words: "Away with the goverment and politicians, who do not react at the attempts to make a bandit a paragon for Ukrainian youth. Dishonor and failure".

I had a problem with idiomatic "dno" ("bottom"), so exchanged it with "failure".

Anyway, as I understand the above fragment:

1. When Kukiz speaks about not helping "bandits" and "OUN/UPA", I don't think he means people like 80-years old members of the actual organisations - I think he means contemporary OUN/UPA fans.

2. I think that he very clearly expresses that according to him, Poland should react to OUN/UPA worship and judging by the tone, I think he means strong reactions, not meek ones.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 24th June 2015, 16:43
Pontius Pontius is offline
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Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL View Post
It's really interesting in the context of the nonsense you wrote previously - about me supposedly going to get "ignored by society" and "excluded from every political debate" because of my stance.
Not because of your views, but because of way you present them.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 24th June 2015, 17:02
MichaelB_PL MichaelB_PL is offline
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Originally Posted by Pontius View Post
Not because of your views, but because of way you present them.
It is you who is using insulting rhetoric, like saying I act "as drunken Russian in public place.". And I have already pointed out your hypocrisy in this - you're criticising me for your tone, but you yourself are using an insulting tone unfit for any serious discussion.

What's the reason for the above hypocrisy? I think that what you really don't like are my views, but since you don't really have any arguments beyond the usual reconciliation rhetoric, you're resorting to insulting and manipulation attemps.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 24th June 2015, 17:12
Pontius Pontius is offline
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Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL View Post
What's the reason for the above hypocrisy?
What's the reason of me using such "insulting rhetoric"? It has not appeared from nothingness.

In case you are unable to use mind, what you already proven - I use such offensive tone, because you started it, and I am not going to be vulnerable forum user ready to receive punches in the face. Capiche?
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