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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 23rd June 2015, 10:21
witkacy52 witkacy52 is offline
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All right Michael, it's enough. We all know your opinion and one-sided historical knowledge.
You've showed as a perfect example of an issue I wanted to talk about.
But not with you. I want to know Ukrainians opinion.
And I suggest the same for you.
Let them speak.

Slava Ukraini.

PS
I would say "too many Polish people are sharing Michael view" even if there were two of them.
Learn to read with understanding.
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 23rd June 2015, 12:22
Pontius Pontius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by witkacy52 View Post
You've showed as a perfect example of an issue I wanted to talk about.
But not with you. I want to know Ukrainians I'll say something anyway opinion.
Poles have to stop perceiving everyone as enemies. The main problem is that "history fans" are mentioning only these glorious things, e.g. Poland was large, Poland conquered Moscow, Poland won against Teutonic order, etc. But Poles do not want to mention crimes that Poles did in the past.

It is even fine, but only as long, as you do not care about history, or at least when you do not complain that there were nations who were tormenting Poles.
___________________________________________________________________
What do most Polish people think? I am referring here only to those, who act like history experts, but their intelect is blocking anything logical that may come out from their mouth.

1. Poland - awesome country. East Slavs have stolen from us large territory. No matter, that Poland got some Western areas and Gdańsk. It should always be ours, because we, Poles, are "the chosen nation" and we can do what we want.

2. Belarus - they never wanted to be independent, really. They are simply Poles who cannot be a part of always_Polish_nation. They will be very greatful if brave Poles will attack Belarus and conquer it, they will be free, they will be liberated.

3. Ukraine - Volhynia. They were killing us. We did nothing wrong to them, never. We just gave them an opportunity, to live in Poland, they should be grateful. Why they attacked us? We were destroying their churches to show them only real faith - we cared about their souls. We banished their language, because we assumed, it would be nice if everyone will understand each other.

4. Lithuania - they are anti-Polish. They should not have their own country, we should unite. Of course, government would be Polish, no Lithuanian there.

5. Russia - vodka addict, crazy maniacs. They stole Prussia from us.

6. Germany - they probably still want to destroy us, nothing changed since 1000 years. So we should attack them first.

7. Czech Republic - atheists, they will be forsaken.

8. Slovakia - isn't it Czech Republic? Ha! No, it is not. I'm so freaking clever now, I proved I know what I am talking about.
_____________________________________________________

Of course, what I written above is not my view. It is how typical Michael thinks. Many Poles, who are talking about history just from one view, is perceiving everyone as enemy. It is natural, that in history neighbouring countries fought, were at war etc. But they are able to remember, that Czech hussites, fought with Polish catholics 500+ years ago, and find there a reason to hate Czechs. And they will not stop, unless Czechs will say now "sorry, for you attacked us, and we were fighting with you".

Ok, maybe I am exaggerating a bit, but you know the point.

Many Poles need to learn, that there is NO POSSIBLE way to talk about a history in polite way, while you are emotionally connected with the events that took place in the past. They are interested in history as long, as there is an opportunity to fight for something, even if it is irrelevant.

No one will change the history. What happened in the past, is past. In literature you know about people who were told: "Don't look backwards" and they did. Orpheus from Greek myths, Lot from the Old Testament. I can relate it to the real world - if you look back, and this is a base of your views, nothing good will happen in the future.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 23rd June 2015, 12:34
MichaelB_PL MichaelB_PL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontius View Post
___________________________________________________________________
What do most Polish people think? I am referring here only to those, who act like history experts, but their intelect is blocking anything logical that may come out from their mouth.
(...)
Of course, what I written above is not my view. It is how typical Michael thinks.
"Nice" insulting tone, slander and nonsense. Many of those things on the list are not only not my beliefs, but furthermore - I haven't ever heard them from any Pole.

On the other hand, about #4 - Lithuanians are anti-Polish and discriminating Polish minority in Lithuania.

Overall, I see that you're trying to obfuscate the issue - the way how Poles and Ukrainians view the worship of fascists and war criminals from OUN/UPA by Ukrainians, by writing lots of non-related nonsense and slanderously try to link that nonsense with me.

Quote:
No one will change the history. What happened in the past, is past. In literature you know about people who were told: "Don't look backwards" and they did. Orpheus from Greek myths, Lot from the Old Testament. I can relate it to the real world - if you look back, and this is a base of your views, nothing good will happen in the future.
So perhaps Ukrainians should not look backward and stop gloryfing fascists and war criminals? Because it's not like it's just history - there is also a contemporary, ongoing cult of OUN/UPA, which many Poles find insulting.

Look closely Pontius and Witkacy, these are your friends, the people you support:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkTf_AEgzUI

Seriously, do you guys have any sense of honor and dignity, or respect for the Polish victims of OUN/UPA?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 23rd June 2015, 12:46
Pontius Pontius is offline
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What is a nonsense, is coming to Ukrainian forum just to continue you crusade. If you want to quote me just to prove your point make sure, you understand what I have written:

Ok, maybe I am exaggerating a bit, but you know the point.

Here. Use google translator if you do not understand.

Furthermore, with such tone you use here in your "debates", you can talk with your friends in pubs. Unless you want to act as drunken Russian in public place. Actually, you do this. You are shouting, insulting and crying, you think you're on some kind of mission - but no one cares. No one will take seriously a drunk guy, overusing abominations - just as no one takes you seriously.

You have your views and your ideas - very fine, we have ours. No one forces you to change your mind, but you trying to do this, like typical Inquisition priest was forcing heretics to believe. But there is no place for emotions, when you talk about history. By your teenage-like rage in the Internet you will achieve nothing - only people will perceive you as a guy who shall be ignored by the society and excluded from every polite debate.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 23rd June 2015, 16:02
witkacy52 witkacy52 is offline
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Michael, you've made me looking at Bandera's biography in Wiki and that's what I've found there:

"Despite the central role played by Bandera's followers in the massacre of Poles in western Ukraine, Bandera himself was interned in a German concentration camp when the concrete decision to massacre the Poles was made and when the Poles were killed. According to Jaroslaw Hrycak, during his internment, from the summer of 1941, he was not completely aware of events in Ukraine and moreover had serious differences of opinion with Mykola Lebed, the OUN-B leader who remained in Ukraine[48] and who was one of the chief architects of the massacres of Poles.[49] Bandera was thus not directly involved in those massacres.[48]"

Is it something you've knew about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL View Post
Look closely Pontius and Witkacy, these are your friends, the people you support:
I'll tell you this again, but the last time.
I was lucky to meed quite a few Ukrainians and none of them worshiped murders or murdered anyone.
But I'm afraid this is something beyond your perception.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 23rd June 2015, 21:40
dobko dobko is offline
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Pontius, Witkacy 52..... You Rock.

When I get back to Poland (soon) we will have to have a Red's together.
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Slava Ukraini

Last edited by dobko; 23rd June 2015 at 22:51.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 24th June 2015, 07:10
MichaelB_PL MichaelB_PL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontius View Post
What is a nonsense, is coming to Ukrainian forum just to continue you crusade.
Problem is, no matter if you like or not, the things I'm writing are true - there is a cult of fascists and war criminals in Ukraine, with people who butchered and mutilated Polish women and children being hailed as heroes.

Quote:
If you want to quote me just to prove your point make sure, you understand what I have written:

Ok, maybe I am exaggerating a bit, but you know the point.

Here. Use google translator if you do not understand.
Oh I did read that, but it changes little - it was still insulting slander, written to insult me. I could also write a long attack on somebody and then manipulatively write "oh I'm exagerrating a bit" (how big of a "bit"?) - but unlike you, I'm above such low, manipulative methods.

Quote:
Furthermore, with such tone you use here in your "debates", you can talk with your friends in pubs. Unless you want to act as drunken Russian in public place. Actually, you do this. You are shouting, insulting and crying, you think you're on some kind of mission - but no one cares. No one will take seriously a drunk guy, overusing abominations - just as no one takes you seriously.
Nice one - you're criticising me for your tone and at the same time, you yourself are using an insulting tone yourself, writing things like "drunken Russian in public place" and "drunk guy". Seriously, what do you want to achieve - present yourself as a hypocrite?

Quote:
You have your views and your ideas - very fine, we have ours.
Well, some things are views or ideas, but some are facts. It is a fact that there is a cult of fascists and war criminals in Ukraine.

Quote:
No one forces you to change your mind, but you trying to do this, like typical Inquisition priest was forcing heretics to believe.
So few line above it was "drunken Russian" and now it's "typical Inquisition priest".

Quote:
But there is no place for emotions, when you talk about history. By your teenage-like rage in the Internet you will achieve nothing - only people will perceive you as a guy who shall be ignored by the society and excluded from every polite debate.
"Teenage-like rage". I wonder what you want achieve by those insults.

As for the rest of your nonsense - Kukiz, AFAIK the most popular politician in Poland at the moment, said he's against supporting Ukraine, mentioning cult of Banderowcy as a reason. Does it mean he is or will be "ignored by the society and excludec from every political debate"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by witkacy52 View Post
Michael, you've made me looking at Bandera's biography in Wiki and that's what I've found there:
(...)
Is it something you've knew about?
Yes, I was aware of that.

The problem is that even though Bandera had no direct participation in the genocide, he did participate in building OUN(B), which was basically a fascist, Pole-hating organisation. In this context, he is indirectly responsible.

It's like somebody would organise a Neo-Nazi group and would go to jail, and while he would be staying there, his subordinates would kick some Jew to death - is the leader of the group really innocent?

Quote:
I was lucky to meed quite a few Ukrainians and none of them worshiped murders or murdered anyone.
But I'm afraid this is something beyond your perception.
Problem is, if you've met "quite a few" Ukrainians, then you probably have shaken hands with some people (some of them) who consider fascists and war criminals heroes. And I wonder if it's within your perception. Is it?

Last edited by MichaelB_PL; 24th June 2015 at 07:30.
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