Go Back   Ukraine.com Discussion Forum > Society > Politics

Notices


Vladimir Putin lays out a menacing choice for the West

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 2nd February 2015, 20:45
Tkach Tkach is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 231
Tkach is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by stepanstas View Post
But whats the solution? For one thing, Ukraine has a duty to it's citizens. Apart from that, you cannot have a flourishing economy if every day land is taken away from you. It's not an uprising, it's foreigners (in one way or another) that take over these cities.

Side note, at a point, not sure if he still is, the president's son joined the army. Not saying he was on the front lines or anything like that, but I think we should see more of that.
Yes, they have a duty to protect them but they are not doing that. There's no way Kiev is going to 'win' or gain on this conflict. With Russia (Putin) helping the Eastern part held and influenced by rebels, it is a battle/conflict you cannot gain an advantage. There is already proof which I have posted - of money that should go to the military of being stolen. Oligarchs are funding both sides. The only land that is being 'taken', is in areas in which the majority of the people are nostalgic for the FSU and they are brainwashed by Kremlin propaganda to support the rebels. Of course, there are many citizens that don't so Kiev should organize a welcoming strategy. The only migrants that ever go to Ukraine should be those citizens who don't want these new republic governments.

Kiev is sending Ukrainian citizens to their deaths with the army since they are not sufficiently equipped and 2nd, because there is no way they can get the land back in this way.

The best way to get it back is to improve the economy and society to such an extent that citizens in the East no longer favour the rebels. Some concessions need to be made. Negotiations need to be ironed out. The violent conflict is ridiculous and makes no sense. But, people here want them to continue killing each other. I guess any military conflict is satisfactory for them as long as they can cheer lead from a desk in front of a computer screen.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 2nd February 2015, 21:01
Hannia Hannia is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 27,186
Hannia will become famous soon enough

Ukraine peace talks collapse as fighting rages
AFP January 31, 2015 3:14

Minsk (AFP) - Peace talks aimed at halting rising bloodshed in eastern Ukraine ended in failure Saturday, with Kiev's envoy saying pro-Russian separatists wrecked a deal by refusing to discuss an immediate ceasefire.

The delayed talks in Minsk were "thwarted" after top rebel leaders stayed away and their negotiators also refused to discuss withdrawing heavy weapons, former Ukrainian president Leonid Kuchma told Interfax Ukraine news agency.

Kuchma also accused the insurgents' representatives of putting forward "ultimatums" at the four-hour talks in the Belarussian capital without giving any more details.

The negotiator for the rebel Donetsk People's Republic, Denis Pushilin, however, blamed Kiev for causing the collapse of the talks and said insurgent leaders would only agree a deal if Kiev's forces halt fire first.

Pushilin said the rebels also insisted the demarcation line include territory taken since the previous line was agreed in September, said by analysts to be around 500 square kilometres (200 square miles).

Mediators from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe had hoped to thrash out a "binding" truce to revive a shattered peace plan despite Kiev suffering one of its bloodiest days yet in the nine-month conflict with 15 Ukrainian troops killed.

The OSCE as well as Russian officials attended the talks in Minsk after a nominal September ceasefire collapsed under the latest wave of violence.

- Urgent ceasefire -

Russian President Vladimir Putin, French President Francois Hollande and German Chancellor Angela Merkel talked to each other by phone on Saturday, urging the warring factions to agree a truce in fighting that has left at least 5,100 people dead.

The insurgents last week pulled out of peace talks and announced the start of an offensive designed to expand their control over a much broader swathe of the industrial southeast.

They said Friday they would push their offensive "until the entire Donetsk and Lugansk regions are freed" of Ukrainian troops should the talks fail.

OSCE officials had said they hoped a deal would also provide for the "unrestricted supply of basic goods and humanitarian assistance" as the civilian death toll mounts in rebel regions Donetsk and Lugansk.

- Key town 'surrounded' -

Fighting is raging around the strategic Ukrainian-controlled transport hub of Debaltseve, some 50 kilometres (35 miles) northeast of the separatist stronghold of Donetsk.

The town of 25,000 people was built around a railroad connecting the two rebel centres of the Russian-speaking southeast.

Defence Minister Stepan Poltorak for the first time said that separatist forces had taken "partial" control of Debaltseve, where rebels claim to have surrounded some 8,000 Ukrainian troops.

The rebels on Friday said that they had taken the town of Vuglegirsk -- some 10 kilometres from Debaltseve -- although Ukrainian military spokesman Andriy Lysenko said fighting there was ongoing.

Both towns are without water, electricity or heating, said regional police chief Vyacheslav Abroskin.

The latest violence has alarmed Ukraine's Western allies, with US Secretary of State John Kerry announcing plans to express his support for the war-torn nation during talks in Kiev on Thursday with President Petro Poroshenko and Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk.

Kerry will then meet his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov on the sidelines of a security conference in Munich, the State Department said.

Western governments and Ukraine accuse Russia of arming and training the rebels, who are deploying extensive weaponry including tanks and multiple rocket launchers. Russia denies claims it has sent regular troops and arms to bolster the rebels, who claim to get all their weaponry from captured Ukrainian supplies.

The 28-nation EU on Thursday extended through September a first wave of targeted sanctions it had slapped on Moscow and Crimean leaders in the wake of Russia's March seizure of the Black Sea peninsula from Ukraine.

Russia accuses the West of manipulating the Ukrainian government, which came to power in elections after the ouster in huge street demonstrations last year of a Kremlin-backed leader. Ukraine peace talks collapse as fighting rages - Yahoo News
__________________

æ, !

Hannia - Hania - Mighthelp
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 2nd February 2015, 21:35
GoodLuckUkraine GoodLuckUkraine is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 185
GoodLuckUkraine is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tkach View Post
Kiev is sending Ukrainian citizens to their deaths with the army since they are not sufficiently equipped and 2nd, because there is no way they can get the land back in this way.

The best way to get it back is to improve the economy and society to such an extent that citizens in the East no longer favour the rebels. Some concessions need to be made. Negotiations need to be ironed out. The violent conflict is ridiculous and makes no sense. But, people here want them to continue killing each other. I guess any military conflict is satisfactory for them as long as they can cheer lead from a desk in front of a computer screen.
What on Earth is an army for if not to defend the people. You're asking the people of Ukraine to roll over and take it up the arse from Putin, give him whatever he wants.

There is no alternate reality in which Ukraine can build a successful economy to show the East, and Russia, the way forward while being slowly conquered by nazis at the same time.

Putin knows this and that is exactly why he is doing it. This is a situation in which Kiev cannot escape without a strong Western response.

And one has not been forthcoming for far too long.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 2nd February 2015, 23:15
Tkach Tkach is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 231
Tkach is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodLuckUkraine View Post
What on Earth is an army for if not to defend the people. You're asking the people of Ukraine to roll over and take it up the arse from Putin, give him whatever he wants.

There is no alternate reality in which Ukraine can build a successful economy to show the East, and Russia, the way forward while being slowly conquered by nazis at the same time.

Putin knows this and that is exactly why he is doing it. This is a situation in which Kiev cannot escape without a strong Western response.

And one has not been forthcoming for far too long.
No, they are just trying to regain territory - but, Russian generals and Ukrainian ones (they are Ukrainian citizens - maybe you forget?!?) seized it and like I said, there is no way to get it back, militarily.

The West is not supplying weapons and don't care if Ukrainian soldiers kill each other. They just see Ukraine as a means to an end - as a strategic position/location. Why would you go to war without a good chance at accomplishing something and they are not able to defend the Eastern part? If the rebels try to take territory that is mostly supporting the Government or that has no or little support for the separatists, then that would be a different story. But, as far as Donetsk and Lugansk etc., it is a losing battle.

Using your smarts is a better strategy and you still haven't stated how they would 'win' or 'succeed' at this conflict. What is the definition here of succeeding? How would it be defined? What is success? How is it accomplished? How many will die and how many should they sacrifice? You obviously have no answers and I've not seen anyone supporting Kiev give explicit answers.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 3rd February 2015, 00:32
Hannia Hannia is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 27,186
Hannia will become famous soon enough
Arm Ukraine to Avoid Another Bosnia
Janusz Bugajski January 30, 2015 THE AMERICAN INTEREST

Failing to arm Ukraine in its struggle against the Russian-backed separatists will lead to a bloodier conflict in the long run.

Ukraine needs effective weapons to defend itself against a separatist war engineered by Vladimir Putin’s Russia. The resistance of the Obama administration against arming a country determined to protect its independence and territorial integrity will prove ultimately counterproductive, as the tragic case of Bosnia-Herzegovina demonstrated over twenty years ago.

When Serbia’s dictator Slobodan Milosevic embarked on carving out a Greater Serbia from a collapsing Yugoslavia in 1991 by supporting proxy separatists, the West imposed an arms embargo on all the Yugoslav republics, arguing that fewer weapons would mean less fighting. But the impact proved the exact opposite. While Belgrade and Serbian separatists already possessed every variety of heavy weaponry inherited from the Yugoslav army, the newly emerging states of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina were denied an effective means to defend themselves.

The consequences were dire, as Milosevic’s proxies murdered and expelled tens of thousands of civilians in a policy camouflaged as “ethnic cleansing.” The Bosniak Muslims suffered the full force of this brutal assault on their territories and people. In effect, the arms embargo on Yugoslavia escalated and prolonged the armed conflict, precipitated attempted genocide, and eventually pulled NATO into the crisis through air strikes and a subsequent peacekeeping operation.

The anti-civilian war and Alliance intervention culminated in the November 1995 Dayton accords, which established a divided Bosnian state that remains dysfunctional and unreformable to this day. All these negative developments were a direct consequence of state vulnerability, military weakness, and Western miscalculation at the outset of the Yugoslav conflicts.

The failure of the West to aid Bosnia militarily also served to radicalize some elements of the Muslim population and introduced foreign mujaheddin units into the war because the government in Sarajevo was desperate for any assistance it could muster. Some of these fighters stayed on to proselytize among Bosnia’s moderate Muslims and were suspected of generating anti-Western jihadism. In Ukraine, a lack of weaponry to resist Russia’s violent assault and the escalating slaughter of thousands of civilians will also embitter sectors of society and raise opportunities for nationalist radicalization.

Contrary to conventional official wisdom in the U.S. administration, arming Ukraine will not automatically lead to an escalation of the war. On the contrary, it is the inability of the Ukrainian government to fully resist the Kremlin-sponsored rebellion that will embolden further land grabs by Moscow and its local proxies. This will increase civilian casualties, already estimated in the thousands, force tens of thousands more to flee their homes, destroy more of the country’s infrastructure, further damage an already precarious economy, and undermine the reformist pro-Western government that Washington and Brussels have fully endorsed.

The basis of statehood, reform, and economic development is national security and social stability. Without effective self-defense against foreign-generated secessionism and outright invasion a country cannot build and consolidate its democratic institutions, pursue deep structural reforms, modernize its economy, or attract desperately needed foreign investment. The case of Yugoslavia needs to be carefully studied by our policy makers so that the same mistakes are not repeated in contemporary Ukraine.

There is also a larger strategic consequence of disabling Kyiv from fully defending its national independence. It sends two troublesome messages to the wider region. First, other vulnerable states along Russia’s borders will wonder whether they will also be left alone to face an aggressive Moscow if their sovereignty and territory is violated. And second, it signals to Putin that the West lacks unity and willpower and the Kremlin can reach for other potential prizes such as the Baltic states without fear of punishing military consequences.

For the past year, Ukrainian forces have demonstrated their determination to defend their country against superior Russian firepower. What they lack is the means to pursue a concerted defense of Ukrainian territory that would become a deterrent to further military aggression. With rebels pursuing new offensives in eastern Ukraine and Russia pouring in more troops and weapons across the porous eastern border, the time is ripe for arming Kyiv with more effective and lethal defensive weapons.

The list is readily available and includes anti-tank rocketry, sophisticated radars, secure communications equipment, and other items that would help deter and deny further territorial gains for Moscow. A program of Western training for Ukraine’s military will also enable better coordination and tactical expertize in confronting Moscow’s invasion.

There is another important element in this military equation that the White House seems to be neglecting. While Ukrainian casualties can be borne by a determined nation that is resisting Moscow’s offensives, climbing losses among rebels, many of whom are Russian citizens, and among Russia’s military forces will challenge Kremlin denials of direct involvement in the Donbas.

The war in Ukraine will become increasingly unpopular among Russia’s population, which is already facing a collapse in living standards because of Moscow’s economic incompetence. A bloody nose for Russia’s Milosevic in Ukraine may actually embolden the Russian people to call for an end to Putin’s imperial restoration project. Surely, our administration would welcome that? Arm Ukraine to Avoid Another Bosnia - The American Interest
======================
Janusz Bugajski is a senior fellow at the Center for European Policy Analysis (CEPA) in Washington, D.C., and author of 19 books on Europe, Russia, and Transatlantic relations. He is co-authoring a book with Margarita Assenova entitled Eurasian Disunion: Russia’s Vulnerable Flanks.
=================================================
Ukraine needs to be armed in order to keep Zaharchenko at bay, thereby raising the cost of aggression to Russia.
__________________

æ, !

Hannia - Hania - Mighthelp

Last edited by Hannia; 3rd February 2015 at 00:57.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 3rd February 2015, 02:02
stepanstas stepanstas is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 3,147
stepanstas is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tkach View Post
Yes, they have a duty to protect them but they are not doing that. There's no way Kiev is going to 'win' or gain on this conflict. With Russia (Putin) helping the Eastern part held and influenced by rebels, it is a battle/conflict you cannot gain an advantage. There is already proof which I have posted - of money that should go to the military of being stolen. Oligarchs are funding both sides. The only land that is being 'taken', is in areas in which the majority of the people are nostalgic for the FSU and they are brainwashed by Kremlin propaganda to support the rebels. Of course, there are many citizens that don't so Kiev should organize a welcoming strategy. The only migrants that ever go to Ukraine should be those citizens who don't want these new republic governments.

The best way to get it back is to improve the economy and society to such an extent that citizens in the East no longer favour the rebels. Some concessions need to be made. Negotiations need to be ironed out. The violent conflict is ridiculous and makes no sense. But, people here want them to continue killing each other. I guess any military conflict is satisfactory for them as long as they can cheer lead from a desk in front of a computer screen.

Well the thing is, it's not about a majority vote. Ukraine has a duty to it's citizens, even if it's just one. Even if majority in some of these regions want to be with Russia, they do not speak for all Ukrainians in the regions. Obviously this approach isn't completely practical considering Russia's streghnth over Ukraine, but giving up is hardly an option for Ukraine. A negotiation is a different story (and likely one in which Ukraine will end up losing land), but purely giving up only advances the enemy further. They are already expanding and attacking peaceful cities which want nothing to do with Russia. As was done through Soviet history, they get rid of or scramble the people and migrate their own in to create a false image.

By the way, I don't know who here is saying they would keep killing each other. I don't want people on either side to die as these are brothers. Some on the "pro-Russia" side are misguided, others are forced to be where they are, doesn't mean they should be killed either.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 3rd February 2015, 02:05
stepanstas stepanstas is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 3,147
stepanstas is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tkach View Post
No, they are just trying to regain territory - but, Russian generals and Ukrainian ones (they are Ukrainian citizens - maybe you forget?!?) seized it and like I said, there is no way to get it back, militarily.
I don't think they're trying to regain territory as much as their trying to hold on to what they can.

And I don't really think it's relevant to point out that there are some Ukrainian citizens among the terrorists. It doesn't make a difference.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:51.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.0.0 RC4 © 2006, Crawlability, Inc.