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What Ukrainians think about Pilsudski`s idea about Intermarium (new Commonwealth) ?

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Old 10th August 2014, 01:32
Gavrilo Gavrilo is offline
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What Ukrainians think about Pilsudski`s idea about Intermarium (new Commonwealth) ?

Ok, let us speak about more optimistic things.

Let us stay above current gray reality and every day politics. This crisis in Ukraine will settle down and life would move on. i am sure, Ukrainians and Russians would solve their problems.

But, one day,... should Ukrainians decide to move on together with Poles and Serbs, Czechs, Slovaks,... in general with Slavic and non-Slavic countries of Eastern and Central Europe,... if in some future (sooner the better), some new Commonwealth appear on horizon and, from a dream, turn to be reality, while at the same time, European Union prove to be failure?

Having positive experiences from time of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, where Serbs even played role of the military elite, idea of the new Commonwealth is more and more popular in my country (Serbia). It comprehend that only Commonwealth can secure interests of people who live between west of Europe and Russia, from Baltic to Balkan and Ukraine. European Union seams to focus solely on interests of the western European countries, while Russia always represented system for itself.

Anyway, what rest of us, in between big powers in Europe can do then to turn to ideas about restoration of Commonwealth.


Intermarium / New Commonwealth - Global player

See, i am curious to found out what brotherly Ukrainians think about possibility of creation of new Commonwealth?


Polish Marshal Pilsudski

Jozef Piłsudski
Józef Piłsudski - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Józef Klemens Piłsudski (1867 - 1935) was a Polish statesman; Chief of State (1918-22), "First Marshal" (from 1920), and leader (1926-35) of the Second Polish Republic.
Intermarium
Intermarium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Międzymorze (in Polish), known in English as Intermarium, was a plan, pursued after World War I by Polish leader Józef Piłsudski, for a federation, under Poland's aegis, of Central and Eastern European countries. Invited to join the proposed federation were the Baltic states (Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia), Finland, Belarus, Ukraine, Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia.

The Polish name Międzymorze, which means "Intersea" or "Between-seas," was rendered into Latin as "Intermarium."

The proposed federation was meant to emulate the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, stretching from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea, that, from the end of the 16th century to the end of the 18th, had united the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
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Old 10th August 2014, 05:14
Davor Davor is offline
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Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth idea Is popular among Serbs!!!

You Serbs always had stupid ideas.

KAd ćete vi Srbi prestati da se glupirate.

And that Pilsudski was maybe good for Poles but for others, he was just polish nationalist who wanted polish supremacy everywhere and I really dont know why he should have any significance for any other nation than Poles.

Drugim riječima - ko ga jebe I ne znam kojeg vraga ga ti nepšto tu uzdižeš. On je bio samo još jedno govno koje je smatralo da je njegova nacija bolja od ostalih.
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Old 10th August 2014, 14:18
Gavrilo Gavrilo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davor View Post
Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth idea Is popular among Serbs!!!
yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davor View Post
You Serbs always had stupid ideas.
pardon?

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Originally Posted by Davor View Post
KAd ćete vi Srbi prestati da se glupirate.
ajde ne zezaj.

Idea is beautiful but, ideologist wasn`t just perfect. Are you? Any of us?

We should take good from idea and make it blossom. Let`s say, idea is good starting point.

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Originally Posted by Davor View Post
And that Pilsudski was maybe good for Poles but for others, he was just polish nationalist who wanted polish supremacy everywhere and I really dont know why he should have any significance for any other nation than Poles.
yes, he was Polish patriot and so what? Poles proved to be quite tolerant back in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth during Sarmatism. Commonwealth perfectly dealt with attempts of west of Europe to assimilate Slavs, while at the same time it provided balance of power with Russia.

Anyway, what alternative we have? Should we invent idea about Intermerium again and pretend that previous idea didn`t exist? No, we can`t ignore our past. We need to speak about it without complexes. Good was good, bad was bad.

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Originally Posted by Davor View Post
Drugim riječima - ko ga jebe I ne znam kojeg vraga ga ti nepšto tu uzdižeš. On je bio samo još jedno govno koje je smatralo da je njegova nacija bolja od ostalih.
Svi mi mislimo da smo mi najvažniji.
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Old 10th August 2014, 14:28
Gavrilo Gavrilo is offline
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an article that i warmly suggests for reading.

Plight of Central European Nations in the Wake of Western Oder Demise

By Igncy Nowopolski, on August 28th, 2008
Plight of Central European Nations in the Wake of Western Oder Demise The Agonist
Quote:
With the fall of the Soviet Empire in 1989 and subsequently the Soviet state itself; a ”œunipolar” world has been created.

The United States and its European allies were at this moment free to shape the World in any way they wished.

Post communistic nations of Central Europe, betrayed in Yalta, were now looking for a helping hand from the West in rising from socialistic ashes of the Soviet occupation. Especially Poland, whose Solidarity Movement was a direct cause of the socialistic system demise, was hoping for a better future in European structures.

As always in the past, Poland’s contribution in bringing freedom to enslaved European nations was quickly forgotten. Now, the politically correct euphemism of the 1989 breakthrough is the ”œfall of the Berlin wall”; although respected German citizens merely physically removed a few concrete blocks of the wall.

And this was after the breakdown of the socialistic system, and after the flight of thousands of East German residents eastward to Poland in search of asylum and freedom.

Two decades later, ominous Western ”œforgetfulness” advanced even further with some starting to accuse Poland of precipitating WWII and the Jewish holocaust.

From 1989 on, the Western corporations were busy designing a strategy for effective robbery of the post communistic societies’ wealth. At the same time, the Western political elite, followed by citizenry at large, reached an unprecedented level of haughtiness [at least since the Herrenvolk’s rise in 1930s Nazi-Germany].

After almost two decades of practicing such attitudes, the West brought immense misery to countless people around the world, political and social chaos throughout its sphere of influence, and serious economic crisis.

Indiscriminate use of real weapons of mass destruction such as ”œdemocracy” and ”œfree market” ideology destroyed the world’s delicate socio-economic fabrics, creating a major instability.

Skilled use of weapons of mass distraction (mainstream media) succeeded in lowering moral and intellectual standards to shameful levels. Most importantly, imperial media have been able to convince people in post communistic countries to voluntarily join the newly established atheistic paradise of the EU.

At the time of the euroreferendum in Poland, euroskeptics circulated an ironic joke that after the incorporation, every Pole will get one Mercedes… to wash.

EU failed to deliver even this. With the exception of brothels, other segments of the EU economy did not produce a sufficient number of menial jobs for millions of immigrants, who steam out of their post communistic homelands.

In summary, one may argue that the plutocratic elite of the Euroatlantic Empire (US/EU) succeeded in achieving its goal of creating ”œThe New World Order”.

However, there is one glitch in it. It failed to secure a reliable global ”œvanquishing” force.

In the early 1990s, NATO was duly selected to become the world police force. Its initial success in destroying Yugoslavia was indeed heartwarming. Not only were all political objectives swiftly achieved, but economic ones as well. Since the Euroatlantic Empire failed to ”œtransform” post communistic economy of this country via fiscal means (as it was done in other Central European countries), it efficiently utilized ”œhumanitarian bombings” for that purpose. This air campaign effectively destroyed Yugoslav (Serb)-owned factories, such as the famous Zastava Autoworks.

One may only marvel at this performance, especially taking into account the most recent successes of Kosovo’s extraction and installation of ”œpro-Western reformers” as administrators of Serbia.

Encouraged by this, German Herrenvolk is currently busy creating in ethnically-homogenous Poland, artificial nationalities named after the country’s regions such as Silesianvolk, Mazurenvolk, etc. They are hoping to soon erase the Polish state from the map of Europe, in accordance with political logic so neatly described in recent Buchanan’s publications.

In all this, the Empire overlooks one important detail. It currently is in a state of rapid disintegration. Insane policies of ruling plutocracy have brought demographic calamity in Europe, additionally coupled with Islamic immigration, economic catastrophe in USA, and utter military defeat in the Middle East. Although the West does not recognize these ”œachievements” yet, they are indeed tangible.

As a result of it, the Empire will be in total disarray within a few years at the most. It will not have any efficient military tool of suppression to deal with this problem. Euroforce has not yet been established, and NATO (beyond Yugoslav experience) has been mostly impotent. Its impressive strategic forces (navy, air force, missiles) are useless for policing purposes. Its conventional forces are being defeated by ragtag militias of primitive Islamic tribes all over the Middle East

If executed, the planned war with Iran may bring the Empire to its knees both militarily and economically, creating utter chaos. In turn, this will leave the EU in ruins with Central European nations at the bottom of the pit. Nevertheless, it will give these impoverished and oppressed people a chance to free themselves from Western slavery.

In order to live up to the challenge, Central Europeans must understand both the world around them, and their own strengths and weaknesses.

The biggest problem for them is lack of genuine national elites. Current colonial-like ”œelites” have slave mentality. They are both unable and unwilling to pursue national interests of their countries, always looking for a ”œmaster-sponsor”. They have been betraying their people all along with the disastrous results that may be clearly seen after two decades of ”œtransformation” and “euroatlantic integration”. In addition, their mere existence prevents any form of genuine regional integration of the Central European countries.

In Poland, the government of gauleiter Tusk looks to Berlin for sponsorship, while pseudo-patriotic segment of ”œelites” congregated around President KaczyÅ„ski hopes for strong ties with Washington.

These ”œelites” fail to understand that ”œalliance” with the West is completely useless. The West always expects fulfillment of other peoples’ commitments, while discounting its own. Being additionally on its ”œlast leg”,the USA is unlikely to complete frivolous imperial projects such as a missile defense shield, which theoretically could have created a ”œfoundation” for potential alliance.

Orthodox Christian Slavs of Southern Europe are busy reviving their historical alliances with Moscow. Notwithstanding common Orthodox roots, the Russians are a deeply troubled, nihilistic society with a corrupt oligarchic elite, and former operatives of dreadful KGB in charge. Living in the present day, without past and future, they are unable to formulate a reasonable political strategy. Suicidal alliance with their greatest natural enemy- China- illustrates well such attitude.

Moscow is eager to play the ”œpan Slavic” card for her gains, but without any serious commitment to the other party’s benefits. The recent NATO summit in Bucharest proved it beyond any doubt. In exchange for dropping Georgia and Ukraine from the alliance membership bid, Moscow practically closed its eyes on the Kosovo issue.

The inevitable collapse of the Empire is going to expose Europe’s southern ”œsoft belly” to vicious assault of Islam. Aggravated by painful experience of current Middle Eastern wars, Muslims may pose a dramatic threat to Europe’s very existence.

In such instance, there is going to be a necessity to stabilize and secure the region. This may be accomplished by some form of cooperation between Central European nations.

In order to survive, these nations must overcome mutual animosities, which currently enable their enemies from the west, east, and south to successfully employ ancient divide et impera strategy.

The answer is in the creation of some sort of ”œCentroslavia”. Failure to achieve this will not only put at risk their ”œmagnificent” future in EU, but their very basic survival.
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Old 10th August 2014, 18:21
Darco Darco is offline
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Originally Posted by Davor View Post
Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth idea Is popular among Serbs!!!

You Serbs always had stupid ideas.

KAd ćete vi Srbi prestati da se glupirate.

And that Pilsudski was maybe good for Poles but for others, he was just polish nationalist who wanted polish supremacy everywhere and I really dont know why he should have any significance for any other nation than Poles.

Drugim riječima - ko ga jebe I ne znam kojeg vraga ga ti nepšto tu uzdižeš. On je bio samo još jedno govno koje je smatralo da je njegova nacija bolja od ostalih.

First of all "Intermarium" was a very general idea created by Józef Piłsudski based on fact that on west there were strong and possibly dangerous Germany (and Austria) and on east strong and dangerous Russia/Soviet Union. Between these strong countries there were (and there are) many smaller other countries which are too weak to make strong military resistance when needed. So idea was to make military alliance between all countries worried by Germany and/or Russia just to make strong protection against possible danger in future.
Of course he was interested in as strong position of Poland but Piłsudski didn't want Polish supremacy over other countries, especially involved in this plan/idea.
As you know, other countries were not interested enough.
Maybe Romania and Hungary were interested but not enough, Czechoslovakia was interested only in good relations with Russia/SU and foreign minister, Józef Beck made proposal to Hungery and Romania but it wasn't accepted.
As you know, later in 1938-1940 many countries were overtaken or invaded by nazi Germany, later even more were overtaken by soviet Russia/SU, about 1990 they become independent but there is putin danger and brute military force against some of them again.
Please, consider that it was an idea rather than plan and list of countries involved wasn't really specified (there were few possible maps done as proposal only) and finally it wasn't even seriously negotiated. Of course no tready with another country was done.
Btw. Romana stayed friendly for Poland 1919-1939, supported Poland in 1919-1921 war and allowed to escape for some of Polish troops in 1939.
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Old 10th August 2014, 19:12
Gavrilo Gavrilo is offline
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Let me show you something


Sarmatian Bosporan crypt (Kerch, Ukraine), Eagle surrounded by symbols


Monete of the Polish King Mieszko I, over 1000 year old currency


Traditional Serbian brad for the `Slava day` family celebration; Serbians are last Slavs that still celebrate this in past universal Slavic (Sarmatian/Scythian/Thracian) custom


Vuk Jeremic, Serbian diplomat, former President of UN General Assembly; Name of symbol is OCILO
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Old 11th August 2014, 01:41
Gavrilo Gavrilo is offline
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Examples of cooperation and solidarity of Slavs from Baltic to Balkan and Ukraine are numerous. We can work together even better in new Commonwealth.

Gammadion - Zawisza czarny

Serbian ode to the Zawisza Czarny, Black Knight of Garbowo and Sulima (veteran of the Grunwald battle / Germanic Teuton order vs. Poles), greatest Polish hero of all times who gave his noble life for the freedom of us Serbians, his bellowed Racowie. There is the grave and monument to the Zawisza in eastern Serbia, near the Golubac fortress on the banks of Danube river. Zawisha was killed by Turkish invaders, who captured him during the battle and after mutilation beheaded. His head was taken then by the Turks, while Serbs managed to took the body from Turks and buried him near the local spring. Great thanks to the brave Bohater!

Gammadion / razor88 - Zawisza czarny - YouTube

He came to defend our Serbian land
for freedom of Europe he made a stand
a Polish knight came to fight
against turks he brought a light

A noble man with black helmet and shield
was one of the bravest in the battlefield
he rode and fought with his black horse
and cut islamic beasts with no remorse

Black knight - we will always remember
Serbs and Poles - always together!
near the danube you died for us
Black knight - always in our hearts!

he was really one of the best
in hall of heroes now he rests
Polish warrior and Serbian knights
from the skies support our fight!

Zawisza Czarny
Zawisza Czarny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
Zawisza Czarny z Garbowa (Zawisza the Black of Garbów, also known as the Black Knight; c. 1379 in Stary Garbów, Poland – 1428 in Golubac, Serbian Despotate), Sulima Coat of Arms, was a Polish knight and nobleman. He served as a soldier and diplomat under the Polish king Władysław II and Hungarian-Bohemian king Sigismund of Luxembourg. During his life, he was regarded as a model of knightly virtues and was renowned for winning multiple tournaments. His nickname is due to his black hair and his custom-made, black armor, which is kept at the Jasna Góra Monastery.
Gammadion - United Swords (Polish & Serbian Brotherhood)

Gammadion - United Swords (Polish & Serbian Brotherhood) - YouTube
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