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What Ukrainians think about Pilsudski`s idea about Intermarium (new Commonwealth) ?

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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 10th January 2016, 12:32
Pontius Pontius is offline
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Originally Posted by Gavrilo View Post
We can talk about it, i agree.

Essentially, Intermarium as idea comes from the founders of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Basically, credit for idea goes to old Polish Jagiellon dynasty.
And that is why it is not going to happen, but is only a relic of the past. Back then people had different realities, lived in geopolitically different world. Later, when Piłsudski came with an idea of creating Intermarium, he already pissed off every neighbouring nation. How could that work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavrilo View Post
Then, Adam Jerzy Czartoryski advocated restoration of Commonwealth. Pilusdski continued to work on idea. i think that he was first to use exact word Intermarium (Międzymorze) and he gave his contribution to the concept.
Czartoryski was obviously a supporter of resurrection of the Commonwealth, however under different name: Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthenian. Unfortunately, the uprisings were not successful, and he never managed to achieve his goal.

But what everyone needs to remember when talking about Intermarium, is that we have different times now, and ideas from the past were brought only because there were different realities. Piłsudski wanted to create an alternative for Germans and Soviets. He was aware of the danger, but he was unable to create any Intermarium, while he was already perceived as an enemy. And when he talked about Jagiellonian traditions, it was obvious for everyone, that he wants to "conquer" neighbouring nations' lands without bloodshed. That is why many nations did not trusted him.

Nowadays, however, there is no point in such conquest, and if Intermarium would be only a base for another idea, which would be some kind of cultural cooperation and military pact (not necessarily only defensive, as NATO is), it could work.

In case of Yugoslavia, well... you see it did not worked well. Putting many nations with different ideologies, and giving one man of particular nationality a hegemony will make other nations unhappy, which may lead to the riots. Yugoslavia was one country, with one army. If some sort of Intermarium would ever emerge, I hope it would not be a country, but union.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 10th January 2016, 15:06
Gavrilo Gavrilo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontius View Post
And that is why it is not going to happen,
if it suits to Serbians, exactly that would happen. We shall convince others. Explain. In world that globalize we people from Baltic to Balkan and Ukraine, with our unique interest, have to give our respond or to vanish assimilated by other civilizations. That`s just how it is. So, we shall exist. All shall hug each others and it won`t be that its our destine that foreigners control us and rejoice on our misery.



In the meanwhile, here is the musical gift for auditorium here, to give some background to the thread. This is about Serbian soldiers in peacekeeping mission in Lebanon. They celebrate day (Vidovdan- day of All-seeing `God`) dedicated to the memory of old Slavic Svetovid. They sing old tribal song, ``Let the dawn breaks``.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qffCG1bBCBI

Quote:
Let the dawn breaks (English lyrics)

Do you hear my darling
The trot of my horse
Do you hear from the mountains
My voice is calling for you

Trumpets have trumpeted
The battle is over
Bells are ringing, the dawn is coming
I'm back, my darling folks!

Aaay, well, let the dawn breaks
let it wakes up my old mother
So she can see
Who is coming back to her!

Aaay, well, let the dawn breaks
to go and kiss my darling
to hug her
white breasts!

When over there, far away
I see a gray chimney
An old plum tree, a rich field
I am coming home alive!

But the best men are gone
the battle toke them away
Your old picture kept me alive
I'm back, my darling folks!

Aaay, well, let the dawn breaks
let it wakes up my old mother
So she can see
Who is coming back to her!

Aaay, well, let the dawn breaks
to go and kiss my darling
to hug her
white breasts!
BDW, spot mark of belonging to the modern day army of Serbia- army that in past gave military elite of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Its an old Sarmatian insignia named `ocilo` (in Serbian) which means `from father`. Its a symbol of sun and solstice. In old books it often stays protected by dragon or even as a shield to dragon.


Serbian army ocilo


Monete of the Polish King Mieszko I, over 1000 year old currency


More then 2000 years old wall Sarmatian symbol founded in Ukraine

This is the very origin of the symbol. Tool for making the fire of the ancients - a Fire Steel known in Serbian as `sign from fathers` - OCILO. In Ocilo, fire steels stays around cross, with turned back to each others in ultimately defensive and protecting position.



Awake Sarmats!
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 10th January 2016, 16:00
Pontius Pontius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavrilo View Post
if it suits to Serbians, exactly that would happen. We shall convince others. Explain. In world that globalize we people from Baltic to Balkan and Ukraine, with our unique interest, have to give our respond or to vanish assimilated by other civilizations. That`s just how it is. So, we shall exist. All shall hug each others and it won`t be that its our destine that foreigners control us and rejoice on our misery.
All shall stop killing each other. All shall be happy. All shall be rich. Et cetera. What one should do doesn't mean, it will become a reality. That means, being an idealist has nothing to do with realistic attitude - preachers are just people who dream about other reality, that will never take place.

Just imagine: how would you convince Bosnians and Croatians to join such "Intermarium"? They had not gained independence during the collapse of Yugoslavia just to be one entity with Serbia again. How would you convince people of Kosovo and Albanians to "join the cause"? They do not have positive feelings toward Serbs neither. How would you convince Ukrainians and Lithuanians to become one country with Poland once again? What about Belarus? And how would you convince Poles, who are already part of the EU, which bravely tries to destroy national and traditional heritage of every member country?

When you want to join various countries into one, one nation MUST have a hegemony. And other nations will not appreciate this, especially due to the fact we all share dark history, not only bright one. Many problems are still unsolved, for instance case of Volhynia during WWII between Poles and Ukrainians, case of Srebrenica between Serbs and Bosnians, and Kosovo's independence topic.

No one would like to create Intermarium as a country. It would lead to unnecessary tensions. And there is totally no necessity to do so.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 10th January 2016, 17:12
BlueandGold BlueandGold is offline
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Cool nato within NATO: Intermarium is working!

It's 2016 Gavrilo! I'm glad you are still here. What a planet we live on - with so much water and free energy!
But Heaven... Wow! That's even a better place.
May the Lord of Peace bless you and protect you and your family always.

It's not easy being a Christian in Erope these days... The U is missing on purpose.
How many times do we have to travel around the sun before hUmans see and understand
the reality around them. LIFE is a blessing and it's wonderful!

But some hUmans want to divide and conquer Europe.
Looking at Western Europe these days and the Problem Reaction Solution being played out on the local populations with a 1000% increase of European women being raped should have all the Church bells of every nation ringing in alarm...

There are dark forces involved. But there is light.

Central and Eastern European citizens are Wise to have a collective trade and self defence policy with each other. Intermarium is like a mini nato within NATO. Democracy supporting democracy. It's a smart move. What an idea to have like minded people helping each other - for peace and prosperity! You can see Intermarium already start to form - from necessity! The idea is already working!

Will, action, knowledge...

Well done to open some curtains and brighten a dark room

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermarium

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity
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Last edited by BlueandGold; 10th January 2016 at 17:54.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 14th January 2016, 16:33
Gavrilo Gavrilo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueandGold View Post
It's 2016 Gavrilo! I'm glad you are still here. What a planet we live on - with so much water and free energy!
But Heaven... Wow! That's even a better place.
May the Lord of Peace bless you and protect you and your family always.
same to you man, all the best to you and to your family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueandGold View Post
It's not easy being a Christian in Erope these days... The U is missing on purpose. How many times do we have to travel around the sun before hUmans see and understand
the reality around them. LIFE is a blessing and it's wonderful!
This is the time when are global civilizations in turmoils and clashes for long term boundaries between their realms. Its about that, among else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueandGold View Post
But some hUmans want to divide and conquer Europe.
Looking at Western Europe these days and the Problem Reaction Solution being played out on the local populations with a 1000% increase of European women being raped should have all the Church bells of every nation ringing in alarm...

There are dark forces involved. But there is light.
let western Europeans do with their world whatever they want. We- people from Baltic to Balkan and Ukraine needs to protect our world and we shall do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueandGold View Post
Central and Eastern European citizens are Wise to have a collective trade and self defence policy with each other. Intermarium is like a mini nato within NATO. Democracy supporting democracy. It's a smart move. What an idea to have like minded people helping each other - for peace and prosperity! You can see Intermarium already start to form - from necessity! The idea is already working!

Will, action, knowledge...

Well done to open some curtains and brighten a dark room

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermarium

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity
We now have entirely new development regarding the grouping of countries around idea of Intermarium. It truly started. For example, we see how Hungary and Serbia gather around Poland and Croatia looking for closer ties with Germany. It even initiated new tensions in the region. This all thing with refugees increasing tensions even more in anyway fragile regional political situation.

What is of extraordinary importance for future access of Intermarium to warm waters of Mediterranean Adriatic coast, Serbia regaining her influence in former Yugoslavia, now after some time passed after the Civil War and when becoming obvious that foreign factor destroyed Yugoslavia with the support of traditionally pro-German and pro-Islamic factors in country (Croatia and Bosnian Muslims), while Serbians (and not only them) stood to defend Slavic South.

Bosnia and Herzegovina (which itself have access to Adriatic) already is on trajectory to reunite with Serbia. Same would be with Montenegro. It is very important because of traditional Croatian pro-German stance, which hold Croatia outside of real of Intermarium. i see many problems on this. More tensions between Croatia-Hungary, Croatia-Slovenia and Croatia-Serbia.

Anyway, i think that would on the long term, Visegrad Group countries move out of NATO and finally out of EU. They would declare their military and political neutrality on other global powers, among else, in order to secure position of Intermarium in emerging multi-polar world. What is interesting, seams that at this moment China and Russia giving signals that would accept formation of Intermarium and reception of it in club of global powers.

And yes, Intermarium isn`t dream anymore but necessity.

good article:

Time for Intermarium (the Isthmus)
20.12.2014 | By Marcin Kędzierski
http://visegradplus.org/opinion/time...arium-isthmus/
Quote:
If we do not want to give up at the start and assume the position of a suppliant, we have to believe that the vision of Central European Union is achievable. Because there is no good alternative. .............................

When I ask myself which model of the neo-Jagiellonian idea, especially in the light of the events in the east, is the most adequate, the answer is the ABC concept, based on the close cooperation between the Baltic states, Visegrad group, Romania and to a lesser extend Bulgaria, and the countries of Western Balkans (Croatia, Serbia, Slovenia). In a short term the cooperation might be hard, but in a further perspective its outcomes will be positive (quasi-federation).

Last edited by Gavrilo; 14th January 2016 at 17:27.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 15th January 2016, 00:25
BlueandGold BlueandGold is offline
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Cool Birds of a feather

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavrilo View Post
same to you man, all the best to you and to your family.


This is the time when are global civilizations in turmoils and clashes for long term boundaries between their realms. Its about that, among else.


let western Europeans do with their world whatever they want. We- people from Baltic to Balkan and Ukraine needs to protect our world and we shall do it.


We now have entirely new development regarding the grouping of countries around idea of Intermarium. It truly started. For example, we see how Hungary and Serbia gather around Poland and Croatia looking for closer ties with Germany. It even initiated new tensions in the region. This all thing with refugees increasing tensions even more in anyway fragile regional political situation.

What is of extraordinary importance for future access of Intermarium to warm waters of Mediterranean Adriatic coast, Serbia regaining her influence in former Yugoslavia, now after some time passed after the Civil War and when becoming obvious that foreign factor destroyed Yugoslavia with the support of traditionally pro-German and pro-Islamic factors in country (Croatia and Bosnian Muslims), while Serbians (and not only them) stood to defend Slavic South.

Bosnia and Herzegovina (which itself have access to Adriatic) already is on trajectory to reunite with Serbia. Same would be with Montenegro. It is very important because of traditional Croatian pro-German stance, which hold Croatia outside of real of Intermarium. i see many problems on this. More tensions between Croatia-Hungary, Croatia-Slovenia and Croatia-Serbia.

Anyway, i think that would on the long term, Visegrad Group countries move out of NATO and finally out of EU. They would declare their military and political neutrality on other global powers, among else, in order to secure position of Intermarium in emerging multi-polar world. What is interesting, seams that at this moment China and Russia giving signals that would accept formation of Intermarium and reception of it in club of global powers.

And yes, Intermarium isn`t dream anymore but necessity.

good article:

Time for Intermarium (the Isthmus)
20.12.2014 | By Marcin Kędzierski
http://visegradplus.org/opinion/time...arium-isthmus/
Amen brother.
A good read. Thank you.
Peace be with you
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One Hetman
One bowl of Borsch

Last edited by BlueandGold; 15th January 2016 at 01:00. Reason: Intermarium benefits all involved!
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 16th January 2016, 00:42
Gavrilo Gavrilo is offline
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more articles in case with topic

By Going to Tallinn on August 23, Poland’s Duda Begins Forming Intermarium

Paul Goble
Window on Eurasia -- New Series: By Going to Tallinn on August 23, Poland’s Duda Begins Forming Intermarium
Quote:
Staunton, August 23 - By going to Tallinn rather than Berlin on his first foreign trip and by doing so on August 23rd, the anniversary of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact that led to the occupation of Poland and the Baltic countries, Polish President Andrzej Duda has taken a major step toward the formation of an alliance of the countries in between Germany and Russia.
The Impossible Dream: President Duda, Poland's Don Quixote

Igor Merheim-Eyre
The Impossible Dream: President Duda, Poland’s Don Quixote | Vocal Europe

Quote:
Being located in the heart of Europe, it comes as pretty obvious that Poland has always sought balance between its Western European and Eastern European policies. It, therefore, comes as no surprise that Duda has called for greater regional cooperation in Central and Eastern Europe. This, after all, is nothing new. In one format or another, every Polish leader seems to call for more regional dialogue.
Quote:
It is admirable that Poland and the new presidential administration seek to punch above their diplomatic weight; indeed, I strongly hope they continue to do so. In diplomacy, where chivalry seems in such short supply these days, testing one's limits in the pursuit of principles is important. However, in diplomacy one must also be aware of limits of one's strength.
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