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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 11th August 2014, 08:36
ex-nyer ex-nyer is offline
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So, which modern western country should feel responsible for the subjugation of the Gauls more than 2000 years ago? Italy? I rather thought that we might limit ourselves to examples that are at least somewhat applicable to modern times -- say, post WWI or so. Your remaining examples aren't particularly apt, either -- you mean to argue that the US and western Europe destroyed Yugoslavia? Seems to me that the constituent nations did a pretty good job of it on their own.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 11th August 2014, 11:13
Gavrilo Gavrilo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-nyer View Post
So, which modern western country should feel responsible for the subjugation of the Gauls more than 2000 years ago? Italy? I rather thought that we might limit ourselves to examples that are at least somewhat applicable to modern times -- say, post WWI or so. Your remaining examples aren't particularly apt, either -- you mean to argue that the US and western Europe destroyed Yugoslavia? Seems to me that the constituent nations did a pretty good job of it on their own.
who is responsible? i don`t know. You decide. i proved my point that genocidal continuity of entire western Europe exist through history and that even genocidal USA politics inherit from the same context.
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 11th August 2014, 14:08
MichaelB_PL MichaelB_PL is offline
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Originally Posted by Gavrilo View Post
who is responsible? i don`t know. You decide. i proved my point that genocidal continuity of entire western Europe exist through history and that even genocidal USA politics inherit from the same context.
"Contuinity" - as far as I know, contuinity means something without pause, unbroken. You simply take out elements of western history, ignoring the whole and call it "genocidal continuity", even though most of these things you mentioned were not genocide.

Also, the tone of your post makes it sound like the things you mentioned are somehow unique to western Europe - they aren't. Looking in the same way, through the same criteria at Africa or Asia, one will also see "genocidal continuity" of wars, massacres and slavery.

From your post I see you're Serbian - I'm Polish and the one thing that really stands out in my eyes when looking at Serbians is the often encountered view that USA (or: West) is evil, while Russia (or: East) is good.

I can understand the former - I think the Serbian people have been wronged by USA, I support Serbian Kosovo and when thinking about that, I dislike USA myself.

The problem is, in my Polish eyes Serbians often have a totally misguided, I'd say even insane view that Russia is somehow better or even diametrically opposed to USA in this regard. We Poles have a completely different opinion, not just because the opinion in itself is different, there is also another difference - we are right, Serbians are wrong. The cause for the latter difference is very simple - we know Russia as it is, as a real entity, instead of a distant, semi-mythological object Serbs are thinking about when they're thinking about Russia. We actually had lots of experiences with Russians throughout the centuries, while for Serbs it was a country far away, a dream of a benevolent Orthodox power.

To list everything which was or is wrong with Russia would be a long, tiring task, so I will limit this to a few points:

1. Medieval Kievan Rus (one could argue how much it was Russian or Ukrainian though) engaged heavily in slave trade. As far as I know, one of the bigger aspects of this was selling blond haired women as sex-slaves to the dark haired Byzantines, who found such looks exotic.

2. Russia is largely a colonial state, kind of similiar to the USA - the vast majority of it's territories are colonised lands of non-Russian tribes.

3. During the so called Particions, Poland were under occupation by Prussian Germans, Austrian Germans and Russians. Somehow, after the Partitions Poles rated Russian occupation as worse and more savage than either of the German occupations.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 11th August 2014, 15:34
Darco Darco is offline
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That's right. There is no genocide on west Europe after WWII and no agreement for that.

Former Yugoslavia is a different case.
Probably Poles in general are neither pro-Serbian nor pro-Croatian or pro-Muslim until they know "rights" from one-side much better than from other sides.
My opinion is that there is no side of conflict or even no country which is 100% innocent.
Some of Slovenians - for starting some fights in the situation they could split quite easily and legally in a friendly way.
Some of Croatians - for starting whole conflict, lack of will to make agreement, making illegal acts and incitement against Serbs.
Some of Bosnia's(Muslims) - for fighting in a hidden way, against international law.
Some of Serbs - of course for biggest genocides and increasing whole conflict.
Nederlands - for making genocide possible
Russia - for sending soldiers and criminals and forgetting about Serbs
USA - for making attacks targeted on civils and breaking agreement with Serbia
EU for doing nothing
Even countries like Poland for accepting splitting whole Kosovo from Serbia including areas where Serbs are majority.
All other countries - for doing nothing or not enough
This is only some simplification but nobody is happy because of Yugoslavian war as nobody is innocent and only bad things happened but don't blame whole World for that. Yugoslavian nations have also some guilt. Additionally EU had no military force to be used and still has no soldiers.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 12th August 2014, 17:28
Davor Davor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL View Post
"Contuinity" - as far as I know, contuinity means something without pause, unbroken. You simply take out elements of western history, ignoring the whole and call it "genocidal continuity", even though most of these things you mentioned were not genocide.

Also, the tone of your post makes it sound like the things you mentioned are somehow unique to western Europe - they aren't. Looking in the same way, through the same criteria at Africa or Asia, one will also see "genocidal continuity" of wars, massacres and slavery.

From your post I see you're Serbian - I'm Polish and the one thing that really stands out in my eyes when looking at Serbians is the often encountered view that USA (or: West) is evil, while Russia (or: East) is good.

I can understand the former - I think the Serbian people have been wronged by USA, I support Serbian Kosovo and when thinking about that, I dislike USA myself.

The problem is, in my Polish eyes Serbians often have a totally misguided, I'd say even insane view that Russia is somehow better or even diametrically opposed to USA in this regard. We Poles have a completely different opinion, not just because the opinion in itself is different, there is also another difference - we are right, Serbians are wrong. The cause for the latter difference is very simple - we know Russia as it is, as a real entity, instead of a distant, semi-mythological object Serbs are thinking about when they're thinking about Russia. We actually had lots of experiences with Russians throughout the centuries, while for Serbs it was a country far away, a dream of a benevolent Orthodox power.

To list everything which was or is wrong with Russia would be a long, tiring task, so I will limit this to a few points:

1. Medieval Kievan Rus (one could argue how much it was Russian or Ukrainian though) engaged heavily in slave trade. As far as I know, one of the bigger aspects of this was selling blond haired women as sex-slaves to the dark haired Byzantines, who found such looks exotic.

2. Russia is largely a colonial state, kind of similiar to the USA - the vast majority of it's territories are colonised lands of non-Russian tribes.

3. During the so called Particions, Poland were under occupation by Prussian Germans, Austrian Germans and Russians. Somehow, after the Partitions Poles rated Russian occupation as worse and more savage than either of the German occupations.

Interesting how you Poles always forget your negative role in history.

You occupied and burned Moscow in 17 century,

Ukrainians turned to Russian Empire to help them to free themselves from polish occupation.

Till 1939 Ukrainians in Poland were treated as second class citizens.

And this comparison between German and Russian occupation of Poland is ridiculous. Germans intended to wipe you out form the face of the Earth.

And it is truth that Ukraine have some parts of former Poland before WW2, LVOV and others, but also SSSR ensured Poland to get compensation in the west, precisely German East Prussia. Without Red Army you would see Gdansk only on TV or as a tourists, and would not have any Baltic sea coast.

So dear Poles I know that you love to tak about yourselves as historical victims but it is only one side of medal. When you were weak you were victims, but when you were strong then you attacked and occupied other peoples and lands.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 13th August 2014, 00:29
MichaelB_PL MichaelB_PL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davor View Post
Interesting how you Poles always forget your negative role in history.
Interesting how you are using the famous Soviet propaganda tactic called "And you are lynching Negroes!". The truth is that you can't deny neither of the 3 facts I wrote before, and I could write many, many more.

Quote:
You occupied and burned Moscow in 17 century,
Do you consider that a negative role in history? Because many nations, not just Poles, would consider that a positive role...

But more seriously - there was no tsar at the moment and Poland tried to support one of the candidates - it was not noble, but hardly something super negative.

Quote:
Ukrainians turned to Russian Empire to help them to free themselves from polish occupation.
And later regretted it.

Quote:
Till 1939 Ukrainians in Poland were treated as second class citizens.
And they STILL had significantly more freedom than under the Soviet Union. Not the mention that on the Polish side of the border, they weren't dying from hunger in millions (!!!).

Quote:
And this comparison between German and Russian occupation of Poland is ridiculous. Germans intended to wipe you out form the face of the Earth.
Learn history better - I was talking about "Partitions of Poland", before WW2, when Poland was divided between Russia, Prussia and Austria. Somehow the Polish impression was that while the Prussians are opressive but civilised, Russians are opressive and uncivilised.

Also, as for WWII, it's hard to say what the Soviets intended initially - they became softer as the war dragged on and manpower started to dwindle. But before the war, they mass murdered about 100 thousands of Poles who lived in the Soviet Union, just for being Polish.

Quote:
And it is truth that Ukraine have some parts of former Poland before WW2, LVOV and others, but also SSSR ensured Poland to get compensation in the west, precisely German East Prussia. Without Red Army you would see Gdansk only on TV or as a tourists, and would not have any Baltic sea coast.
Without Red Army, we would see Germany defeated with American atomic bombs, with Berlin or some other German city sharing the fate of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Quote:
So dear Poles I know that you love to tak about yourselves as historical victims but it is only one side of medal. When you were weak you were victims, but when you were strong then you attacked and occupied other peoples and lands.
Here you are generally right, BUT at the same time, it doesn't mean that we are like Russians. Basically it's like what I wrote about the Polish experience under Partitions - Prussian Germans were seen by Poles as opressive but civilised, while Russians were seen by Poles as opressive and uncivilised.

The difference between Poles and Russians throughout the centuries was pretty much the same as between Russian and Prussians - we were opressive at times, but we weren't (culturally) semi-Asiatic barbarians.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 13th August 2014, 16:37
Davor Davor is offline
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL View Post
Interesting how you are using the famous Soviet propaganda tactic called "And you are lynching Negroes!". The truth is that you can't deny neither of the 3 facts I wrote before, and I could write many, many more.



Do you consider that a negative role in history? Because many nations, not just Poles, would consider that a positive role...

But more seriously - there was no tsar at the moment and Poland tried to support one of the candidates - it was not noble, but hardly something super negative.



And later regretted it.



And they STILL had significantly more freedom than under the Soviet Union. Not the mention that on the Polish side of the border, they weren't dying from hunger in millions (!!!).



Learn history better - I was talking about "Partitions of Poland", before WW2, when Poland was divided between Russia, Prussia and Austria. Somehow the Polish impression was that while the Prussians are opressive but civilised, Russians are opressive and uncivilised.

Also, as for WWII, it's hard to say what the Soviets intended initially - they became softer as the war dragged on and manpower started to dwindle. But before the war, they mass murdered about 100 thousands of Poles who lived in the Soviet Union, just for being Polish.



Without Red Army, we would see Germany defeated with American atomic bombs, with Berlin or some other German city sharing the fate of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.



Here you are generally right, BUT at the same time, it doesn't mean that we are like Russians. Basically it's like what I wrote about the Polish experience under Partitions - Prussian Germans were seen by Poles as opressive but civilised, while Russians were seen by Poles as opressive and uncivilised.

The difference between Poles and Russians throughout the centuries was pretty much the same as between Russian and Prussians - we were opressive at times, but we weren't (culturally) semi-Asiatic barbarians.

This is all pile of rubbish. I know everyone has a his own view on history and that is it.

And if we talk about Russia, it is today only free and independent country in Europe. That is why is American Satanist empire aggressively attacking Russia, that s why they orchestrated this coup in Ukraine trying to provoke Russia to invade Ukraine but so far without success, that's why America use it's servants and vassals form so called EU in order to isolate Russia, but they can do nothing. They will harm Russian economy but they will not force Russia to become American colony like your country and like my country.

Poland used to be proud nation and today it is DEEP in an American ass,

You can call it democracy, you can call it that freedom you can call whatever you want but you are exactly what R. Sikorsky said about it recently,

Good luck!

P. S. And this crying about apples is really ridiculous. Please tell people in Poland that they look silly and to stop making fools of themselves.
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