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Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 'shot down' in Ukraine

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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 21st July 2014, 16:39
Tkach Tkach is offline
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Originally Posted by Inga Ukraine View Post
What about this?!?

Russians Are Leaving Flowers At The Dutch Embassy In Moscow And Begging "Forgive Us"

Am I the only one who's objective here?!?

Last edited by Tkach; 21st July 2014 at 16:57.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 20th October 2014, 21:39
Gotno Gizmo Gotno Gizmo is offline
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Pro-Russians declare Russia not to be blamed

Pro-Russian bloggers and trolls on Twitter and other popular social media are using this German report on the MH17 downing in Donbas, eastern Ukraine as being indicative that Russia was not involved. Their consensus of opinion is that it was probably a more remote group of separatists using an anti-aircraft missile system obtained through the defeat of a Ukrainian Army unit. Thus Russia has no culpability as the separatist unit was not acting under their orders, and that the Ukraine Army were lacking in their duty to keep secure lethal equipment.

Seems a reasonable proposition until you consider that if Putin had taken the position (that he has the power to make) that NO support of any kind should be offered to illegal groups forming in Donbas, this war would never have got of the ground in the first place. However, the intelligent world can be in little doubt that after his successful annexation of Crimea, Putin's ego invigorated his preparedness to directly or indirectly permit manpower and resources to cross Russia's border illegally into Ukraine. Unfortunately the perceptible arrival of resources to the self proclaimed "Republics" coincided with President Poroshenko's claims that "the border is now secure" turning himself into just another politician "gobbing off'" during that period.

Several months on it has become clear that the pro-Russian separatist/ terrorist and usually bandit forces have had their numbers increased, along with a huge enhancement of military hardware from mostly unsubstantiated sources. There is also good evidence that the Russian Army itself has also played a significant role in critical battles enabling the separatists to retake previously lost, and to capture new ground.

It is well known that the separatist forces lack cohesion and common endeavour of purpose suggesting that these units are being funded by persons with different agendas. Thus it may well be that given time they may continue to fragment to the advantage of the Kiev government. The self proclaimed leaders of the "Republics" are men of limited talent, and many of the much needed intellectuals and specialists have long fled from the area. Limited numbers of doctors and nurses remain, and those that do have an uncertain revenue stream inasmuch as who will pay their wages. Similarly those remaining teachers who remain, who are prepared to swear to uphold the new pro-Russian, anti-Ukraine curriculum will have to gamble about the probability of receiving salaries anytime soon.

Having spent enough time in Lugansk to understand the disappointments resulting from corrupt Kiev governments of the past, I believe that when many the Donbas citizens backed the "Republics" they made the same unfortunate mistakes as when they backed Yanukovych. I fear that their virtual self induced misery will not end anytime soon.
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Old 10th March 2015, 14:22
Gotno Gizmo Gotno Gizmo is offline
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Did any of you see this video clip?

I know that the shooting down of Malaysia flight MH17 is stale news now, but I didn't see this video clip before regarding this topic before.
If you haven't yet seen it, what makes it particularly interesting is that it was produced by Boris Nemtsov and Leonid Martynyuk. It is in the Russian language with English subtitles (5mins 11 secs).
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Old 12th March 2015, 19:48
Hannia Hannia is offline
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From 'Red October' Village, New Evidence on MH17 Downing Over Ukraine
VOICE OF AMERICA Reuters March 12, 2015 12:57 PM


Villagers in eastern Ukraine have told Reuters they saw a missile flying directly overhead just before a Malaysian airliner was shot out of the sky on July 17 last year, providing the most detailed accounts to date that suggest it was fired from territory held by pro-Russian rebels.

The accounts from four villagers of Chervonyi Zhovten, which was then, and is now, controlled by the rebels, are significant because they indicate the rocket was in the early stages of its flight path.

That would mean it must have been launched from rebel ground nearby, challenging the suggestion of Moscow and the separatists that the plane was brought down by the Ukrainian military. At the time, the nearest Ukrainian-held area was about 6 km (3.7 miles) away.

Ukraine and its Western allies have said it was the rebels who shot down the airliner, using a Russian-made BUK anti-aircraft missile system. All 298 people on board were killed.

Until now, videos, photographs and accounts from residents have pointed to a BUK battery being delivered to the rebel-held town of Snizhne, 7 km north of Chervonyi Zhovten, on July 17, and then driven away from the area some time later. Its precise location at the time the plane was shot down has never been confirmed.

Now one of the villagers has told Reuters that a missile battery was positioned in a field near Chervonyi Zhovten on the day the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777, en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, crashed to earth. A former rebel fighter corroborated this.

Ukraine's defense ministry declined to comment for this story. A top rebel commander, Andrei Purgin, said the separatists did not have any weapon capable of downing a plane at cruise altitude.

“You can come up with whatever you want. The most that we, the rebels, were operating is the PZRK (shoulder-launched missile system). The ceiling for the PZRK is up to 4 km,” he said.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said it was up to a Dutch-led international investigation to determine what happened. “The Russian side awaits that information impatiently,” he said.

The downing of the plane was a turning point in the conflict in Ukraine, in which around 6,000 people have been killed since last April. It persuaded many Western governments that the Russian-backed rebels were a dangerous threat and stiffened their resolve to impose new sanctions on separatist leaders and on Moscow.

Digging potatoes

On the afternoon of July 17, Valentina Kovalenko was digging up potatoes in her garden in Chervonyi Zhovten, a village whose name translates as Red October in honor of Russia's Communist revolution of 1917.

“It took off, at first we thought that a plane was crashing. But it was a rocket,” said Kovalenko, 45, who then saw what she thought was smoke coming from the 'Progress' mine in Torez, a town 9.5 km away to the north-west.

Her daughter Anastasia Kovalenko, 14, said she saw a rocket flying over the village, and then a plane in the distance blowing up.

Olga Krasilnikova, 30, also said she saw a rocket, some time between 4 and 5 p.m. “I saw it was flying, flew right over me. From that side,” she said, pointing to the outskirts of the village . “I saw smoke in the sky, then I heard an explosion and I saw a huge blue [cloud of] smoke.”

MH17, flying over eastern Ukraine towards the Russian border, came down around 4:20 p.m. local time. The biggest concentration of debris was found near Hrabove, about 20 km from Chervonyi Zhovten. Older BUK rockets have a range of around 25 to 35 km; the most modern can reach up to 45 km.

Since last July, gaining access to the village has been difficult because of fighting in surrounding areas, but a Reuters reporter was able to reach Chervonyi Zhovten in February.

“My mother and I were in the yard when it happened,” said Pyotr Fedotov, a 58-year-old resident. “There was such a bang that we involuntarily sat down, in the yard, our legs gave way underneath us. Then we got curious and immediately went to the other side of the house to take a look.”

“The rocket was here, it wiggled around, then some kind of rocket stage separated, and then, somewhere toward Lutuhyne, Torez, I saw the plane fall apart in the air. It was only later that we found out it was a Boeing,” Fedotov said.

Missiles from a BUK battery can often zig-zag through the air for a few seconds after launch before their onboard radar locks on and steers the missile towards the target, according to video footage of test launches posted on the Internet.

Taken together, the accounts do not conclusively prove the missile launched from near Chervonyi Zhovten was the one that brought down the airliner, because none of the villagers saw it actually being launched.

Nor could they shed light on a contention of officials in Kyiv and in Western states, that the BUK missile battery was brought in from Russia and was operated by a Russian crew. Moscow has denied its military is active in eastern Ukraine.

Village outskirts

When interviewed by Reuters, Fedotov, the witness who described the 'wiggling' rocket, at first said on camera that it was fired from territory held by the Ukrainian army. Later, off camera, he said it was launched from a nearby rebel area. Asked why he had originally said the opposite, he said it was because he was afraid of the rebels.

He gave a Reuters reporter directions to a field 1.5 km from the village, which he said had been identified to him by local farm workers as the point from which the missile battery had launched the rocket.

When Reuters visited the site in February, there were no signs of any missile launch.

Russian and separatist officials have said that Ukrainian military aircraft were overhead at the time the Malaysian airliner came down. They have said that if an anti-aircraft missile was launched in the vicinity, it was to bring down a Ukrainian warplane. They have also suggested a Ukrainian fighter aircraft may have shot down the Malaysian airliner.

Washington believes that pro-Russian separatists most likely shot down the airliner “by mistake,” not realizing it was a civilian passenger flight, U.S. intelligence officials have said.

An official of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence told Reuters: “Our previous assessment still holds.”

The investigation into the cause of the disaster is being led by authorities in the Netherlands, as two-thirds of those on board were Dutch. An interim report published in September which was based on data from the aircraft's black box recorders, photographic and radar evidence, and satellite imagery, said the Boeing was brought down by “high energy objects” in its vicinity - consistent with attack from the air or the ground.

“The investigation is ongoing and for as long as it is ongoing we cannot give any conclusions,” Sara Vernooij, a spokeswoman for the Dutch Safety Board which is handling the case, told Reuters when approached for comment on this story.

A former rebel from the separatist Vostok battalion, who for security reasons asked to be identified only by his first name, Igor, told Reuters that a BUK battery was in Chervonyi Zhovten on July 17, and he himself was not far from the village.

Igor said the battery's mission was to discourage Ukrainian Su-25 ground attack jets from attacking separatist targets in the area. A BUK missile had been launched against the Ukrainian jets half an hour before the Malaysia Airlines Boeing came down, forcing the Ukrainian pilots to pull out, he said. From 'Red October' Village, New Evidence on MH17 Downing Over Ukraine


æ, !

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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 13th March 2015, 13:57
ukcat ukcat is offline
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That's a lot of information on something the world already knew. The separatists radio transmission intercepted right after the incident pretty much sealed the deal as to who did it. The question is, will anyone ever pay for it? And the sad answer is no.
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Old 13th March 2015, 23:33
MichaelB_PL MichaelB_PL is offline
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Originally Posted by ukcat View Post
That's a lot of information on something the world already knew. The separatists radio transmission intercepted right after the incident pretty much sealed the deal as to who did it. The question is, will anyone ever pay for it? And the sad answer is no.
Do you mean the transmission according to which the separatists did shoot the plane down AND according to which it was a mistake?

If so, then do you realise that the transmission actually exonerates the separatists in the context of a potential war crime? (because misidenfitication leading to unintentional attack on a civilian plane is hardly a war crime)

On the other hand, Ukraine seems to be guilty of not fulfilling it's duties and at least some families of the victims are going to sue it:

Families of German MH17 victims to sue Ukraine: lawyer | Reuters

(...)Professor of aviation law Elmar Giemulla, who is representing three families of German victims, said that under international law Ukraine should have closed its air space if it could not guarantee the safety of flights.

"Each state is responsible for the security of its air space," Giemulla said in a statement emailed to Reuters. "If it is not able to do so temporarily, it must close its air space. As that did not happen, Ukraine is liable for the damage."(...)

Generally speaking, the safety of the passengers is not the responsibility of the troops on the ground. It's the responsibility of the state internationally recognized to be in control of the airspace. Which makes a lot of sense - it's far better to count on countries to close their airspaces to civilian flights than to count on soldiers on the ground identifying their targets properly all the time.
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Old 14th March 2015, 04:08
stepanstas stepanstas is offline
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Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL View Post
If so, then do you realise that the transmission actually exonerates the separatists in the context of a potential war crime? (because misidenfitication leading to unintentional attack on a civilian plane is hardly a war crime)
Mistake or not, they did shoot down the plane. They wen't exactly disappointed they shot down the plane. After it was shot down they said it must have been spies because of the international passports.

Also, commercial flights fly over war zones all the time. It's cheaper for them and that's the path they decide to take. Ideally this wouldn't have happened, but nobody thought it would.
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