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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 10th March 2014, 02:41
stepanstas stepanstas is offline
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Michael, as I mentioned, Ukraine has a long history. All they fought for was their freedom. It's difficult for people to understand. In Poland you don't have the problems that exist in Ukraine. Ukraine was divided and taken over time after time. That leads to some questionable history, but fascism and neo-nazi are words that are used too often these days. Poland doesn't exactly have clean hands in this and in its time people fight for whats theirs. It is what it is, no need to take it any further.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 10th March 2014, 02:45
stepanstas stepanstas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimean guest View Post
stepanstas If you want to see the crimes of Bandera and his "team" just look at the historical photoes where little Polish children are dead because they cut their bodies and so on. The photos are really awful. The new fascists in Maidan cried the same words their "hero" grandfathers cried when they kill peaceful women children and old people/ For example they cried ^ Communists we have to put on the branch. Sorry I cant translate better but it means to kill communist people and put them dead on the stick. They asked to ban communist party in Ukraine which is not big right now and dot have any serious influence but is important to the old people who remember World War the Second. They can easily stop anyone in Kiev and ask to show documents or things in the bag only because they have sticks and sometimes even weapon. There are a lot of policemen who suffer from their hand, burnt and injured but you still speak of the peaceful demonstrations in Kiev/
You are creating an association that doesn't exist. Yanukovich's police force (who are not in Crimea and have sold themselves to Russia) shot and killed those very same young people. They have sticks while your "self-defense" guys have military equipment. We're not going to reach an agreement here, but the facts you ignore are right in front of you.
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 10th March 2014, 04:08
stepanstas stepanstas is offline
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This is what people with sticks had to go up against.

Ukraine Revolution. TOP of the MOST CRUEL MOMENTS. 18 FEB - 20 FEBRUARY 2014. Euromaidan - YouTube

And for all the tough guys, watch 3:55
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 10th March 2014, 10:26
MichaelB_PL MichaelB_PL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stepanstas View Post
Michael, as I mentioned, Ukraine has a long history. All they fought for was their freedom.
Stepanstas, are you aware that virtually every extremist and genocide perpetrator group has a top-level goal that isn't evil in itself? What makes them different is HOW they think the top-level goal should be achived. In that context your "All they fought for was their freedom." is meaningless, because something similiar could be said about every other "problematic" group.

The top priority goals of Turk perpetrators from the Armenian Genocide weren't about causing deaths of Armenians - they thought they did it for Turkey, for Turkish people. The same goes for the perpetrators in Rwanda, former Yugoslavia, etc etc. Even Hitler's top-level motivation, perhaps contrary to popular belief, wasn't to hurt the Jews - he wanted to hurt them in a misguided attempt to help his own people. In less serious, merely terroristic cases, IRA or ETA's top level goals are also defined as freedom, but what makes them pathological are the ways they try to achive them.


Quote:
It's difficult for people to understand. In Poland you don't have the problems that exist in Ukraine. Ukraine was divided and taken over time after time.
We DID have the problems you describe. We were partitioned between 3 empires before WWI. And somehow I don't know about Poles butchering German, Austrian or Russian civilian population, even during the uprisings.

Quote:
That leads to some questionable history, but fascism and neo-nazi are words that are used too often these days.
No, you're aproaching this from the completely wrong direction. Fascism and neo-nazi are words that are used far TOO SELDOM by Ukrainians when it comes to OUN/UPA and it's contemporary cult among western Ukrainians - not only these days, but for the whole decades.

Russian propaganda is simply going for the opening, because it's easier to make propaganda if there actually is a factual basis for it. In other words, Maidan Ukrainians are partially guilty of what it acuses them of.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 11th March 2014, 00:17
witkacy52 witkacy52 is offline
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Dear All.

As originally Polish I am very well aware of UPA Ukrainian nationalists from the past.
But currently talking about it is exactly what I raised at the very beginning - the Russian propaganda. This is in their interests to focus on the issue that is completely minor, to show every Maidan participant in this way to scare Russian-speaking part of nation.

This is the old story, and whatever happened that time, it has nothing to do with the current situation. Even is a few (but highly visible) people admit themself descendant of it, they are insignificant in a crowd of honest people trying to regain their country back. Those people can see this minority as much as I can and they won't give them any power. As far as I know Kiev is quiet and safe now, after Yanukovych has left and his henchmen has dispersed (anybody from Kiev here?).

With all respect to 'Crimean quest' I think that your point of view is exactly how Russia wanted it to be, especially before Russian-organized referendum. I think also that it is far from being true. Crimean Russian-speaking people are not in any danger and never had been. At least from fellow Ukrainians.

I'd like to take the opportunity to ask directly a person from Crimea:
- how does Crimean people see the current military Russian presence in Crimea,
- how does they see the fact that their uniforms are unmarked and Russian politicians openly deny their presence in Crimea,
- and the fact of taking over all strategic locations (airports, public buildings, military bases) in foreign country (so far Crimea is Ukraine) by them in a very well organized, long-time-ago prepared way.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 11th March 2014, 00:41
Crimean guest Crimean guest is offline
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witkacy52 Im not going to argue with you but I ll tell you a little my opinion.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 11th March 2014, 00:49
ex-nyer ex-nyer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL View Post
...We DID have the problems you describe...
Yes, the Second Polish Republic had similar problems to today’s Ukraine with respect to interethnic and interconfessional strife. These are no longer so much of an issue, as wholesale population transfers have created a state where the population is much more homogeneous. For the Polish nation, this has probably been a blessing, as it has allowed the state to develop without the need to deal with such intractable matters. For the deportees/expellees, however, it likely didn’t seem to be much of a blessing at the time.

As an aside, my aunt was raped and murdered in 1944 by Polish partisans – the murderer was a childhood classmate of my Dad’s, in fact – and my uncle was summarily executed by the Russians/Soviets, so perhaps it’s difficult for me to be as objective as I should. I’d say, however, that you shouldn’t issue a blanket absolution to anyone involved in the chaos that prevailed in eastern Poland/western Ukraine at the time. All were guilty of atrocities, and all, no doubt, thought that what they were doing was “right.” Personally, I think that accusations of widespread neo-Nazism in western Ukraine are utterly mad. My own roots lie there, and I know many, many western Ukrainians (or their descendants) who fought with or sympathised with OUN, UPA, or the Galicia Division – not a single one of them could be accurately described as a Nazi sympathiser or apologist. Anti-Russian/Soviet? Sure. Anti-Polish? You bet (although I perceive this attitude as decreasing over time as an appreciation for the shared tragedy of the region replaces intolerance). Anti-Semitic? Some, no doubt – although I haven’t seen nearly as much anti-Semitism amongst western Ukrainians as appears to regularly feature amongst the pro-Russia crowd lately. Pro-Nazi? Never.

Pre-WW2, it served both German and Soviet interests to have a fractious Polish state between them, as it was a convenient bogeyman for internal propaganda. It seems to me that Ukraine currently fills this role for the Kremlin. Expelling ethnic minorities is now disfavoured as a means of reducing internal tensions, so even though current Russian histrionics are laughably hypocritical, a more homogeneous rump state is probably about the best that Ukraine can hope for, after Russia takes whatever it wants. That’s sad and defeatist, perhaps, but the history of the region isn’t exactly replete with joyful news.
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