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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 9th March 2014, 21:21
Hannia Hannia is offline
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CG,

I live across the river from where this stupid person pictured in following article lives. If I were to follow your logic, I would worry about every Polish Person I were to meet. I don't, because I know better.

The Neo-Nazis of Hipster Brooklyn


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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 9th March 2014, 21:29
stepanstas stepanstas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL View Post
Dear Witkacy, the problem is that when Russian propaganda presents Maidan supporters as "Nazis" or "Fascists", there is some truth in that.

As a Polish person (or just born in Poland?) you should know that Maidan has strongest support in the Western Ukraine, exactly where people treat fascists and war criminals from OUN and UPA as "heroes". Those people build monuments to fascists who mass murdered tens of thousands of Polish civilians during WWII and don't seem to feel much remorse or shame about it.
Each nation has their own heroes and it's almost impossible to have a national hero who is not an enemy to some. It's a long and complicated history and your summary doesn't really do it justice. The only objective taht OUN and UPA had was to have a free and independent Ukraine. Nobody will deny that people died in the process. That includes Polish and Ukrainian.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 9th March 2014, 21:34
stepanstas stepanstas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannia View Post
CG,

I live across the river from where this stupid person pictured in following article lives. If I were to follow your logic, I would worry about every Polish Person I were to meet. I don't, because I know better.

The Neo-Nazis of Hipster Brooklyn


Adam Krause Photo
Be careful Hannia. They're right across the river, they'll be coming to get you soon. And they will force you to speak Polish.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 9th March 2014, 21:40
stepanstas stepanstas is offline
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Crimean Guest,

Can I ask where you get your Internet from now? Do you have any access to Ukrainian television? What city do you live in?
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 9th March 2014, 21:54
Crimean guest Crimean guest is offline
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stepanstas i live in Simferopol/ I use Internet at home as usual/ I dont like watching TV at all because I dont want my children to watch different advertising. So I dont have TV at home. But my parents have and they can see any chanel they like including Ukrainian channels. But you know many people here dont watch Ukrainian news only because of they represent only one side. Besides many people in Crimea dont consider the new Ukrainian governmet legal. And not only in Crimea but also in Donetsk and Dnepropetrovsk (my friends and relatives). But the picture is that neally half of Ukraine is against Maidan and half of it really support Maidan/
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 10th March 2014, 00:26
MichaelB_PL MichaelB_PL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stepanstas View Post
Each nation has their own heroes and it's almost impossible to have a national hero who is not an enemy to some. It's a long and complicated history and your summary doesn't really do it justice. The only objective taht OUN and UPA had was to have a free and independent Ukraine. Nobody will deny that people died in the process. That includes Polish and Ukrainian.
It is one thing to have national heroes who were simply enemies to another nation, more or less within civilised norms. It's something different to worship fascist war criminals, who commited genocide against civilian population.

Generally the problem in this case is that (western) Ukrainians cannot "afford" to admit that yes, there was something deeply wrong with OUN/UPA, in a way similiar to the way there was something wrong with the Nazis. They/you cannot "afford" it, because there is too much emotional investement, too much time and effort spent on building a positive mythology around people who were basically Nazi-like deviants by objective standards.

The strategies used by Ukrainians to falsely present OUN/UPA as normal (non-fascist/non-genocidal) organisations vary, from outright denial to more subtle ones like blaming the other side, misdirections and euphemisms, but ultimatively it's all battle against the truth, like it or not. And BTW it's really disguisting that Ukrainians simultanously fight for recognition of one genocide (Great Famine), while denying another genocide and calling the perpetrator formation "heroes".

Ukrainian whitewash propaganda aside, the reality is that western Ukraine is a nest of neo-fascism, where fascists like Bandera are being worshipped as heroes. And in this aspect, there is some truth in Russian propaganda about Maidan. Of course propaganda is propaganda, Russians are trying to present a distorted, overblown image, but still there is some truth behind it.

BBC video about the ugly side of Maidan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY

Last edited by MichaelB_PL; 10th March 2014 at 00:53.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 10th March 2014, 00:51
Crimean guest Crimean guest is offline
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stepanstas If you want to see the crimes of Bandera and his "team" just look at the historical photoes where little Polish children are dead because they cut their bodies and so on. The photos are really awful. The new fascists in Maidan cried the same words their "hero" grandfathers cried when they kill peaceful women children and old people/ For example they cried ^ Communists we have to put on the branch. Sorry I cant translate better but it means to kill communist people and put them dead on the stick. They asked to ban communist party in Ukraine which is not big right now and dot have any serious influence but is important to the old people who remember World War the Second. They can easily stop anyone in Kiev and ask to show documents or things in the bag only because they have sticks and sometimes even weapon. There are a lot of policemen who suffer from their hand, burnt and injured but you still speak of the peaceful demonstrations in Kiev/
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