The greate RUS or why Ukrain's afraid of union with Russia.

[NORRYM]

Andrei Boholyubskiy sacked Kiev in 1169. How can such a renagade prince, along with his descendants, lay clam to Kievan Rus'? Another, conveniently skirted, link contributing to the contorted Russian logic.

emkay/02/25/01

[Stephen_Bailey]

Norrym,

Boholyubskiy cannot lay claim to Ukraine because he's been dead for 900 years. Do we need a better reason ??

Ukraine isn't "afraid" of union with Russia - it's just a silly idea, full stop!

Here's a serious question though. Do you REALLY think it's fair to lump the present people of Russia in with a despotic ruler who lived so long ago ??

I ain't no fan of mr Putin, but if we in "The West" hadn't spent 10 years gloating over the collapse of the USSR and 'laughing' at Russia, would the Russian people have wanted a "strong" leader who could restore their national pride?
I think not.

I'm old enough to remember August 1991. The Russian people had their chance to return to authoritarianism then - and they rejected it, totally.

The biggest threat to world peace is actually on the OTHER side of the Atlantic.

S.B.

[NORRYM]

Current history in the making cannot hang in a vacuum. As long as there remain the 'hangers on' to the Russian Imperial Dream, we cannot afford to ignore it. It's one thing to take care of the house, and another to guard against the intruders. Taking care of Kuchma Kabal, cannot assume monopoly in our thinking. Moscow is known to thrive on someone's misery. We cannot pretend all is well internally or externally. Taking care of one, does not free us from the concern for the other.

emkay/02/25/01

[Stephen_Bailey]

Norrym,

I agree with you. But, if I may suggest, I wouldn't be too worried about the Putin regime.

Yes, Putin certainly imagines himself to be the new "Vozhd", but he showed his true colours by staying on holiday while 118 brave men lost their lives in the Kursk tragedy.
His people know him for what he is now; a Dinosaur.

You're absolutely right though. Ukraine should watch its back - but not just against Russia.
Go back in time just 4 or 5 years. Who would EVER have thought Poland would be a member of NATO??
I have a sneaking (and horrible) suspicion that the USA will not stop with Poland and shortly suggest what a good idea it would be if Ukraine joined NATO too.
They'll keep 'pushing' because, unlike every other country in the world, Americans honestly do believe their own propoganda. They REALLY believe God is on their side.
That scares me more than Kuchma, Putin, Saddam and North Korea put together.

S.B.

[ILay]

Here are some (full of suggestion) data about what people of the mentioned countries really want:

According to Interfax news agency, the Moscow humanitarian and social academy organized public opinion poll in december 2000.

The results have shown the following:
69% of Belorussians,
61% of Russians and
53% of Ukrainians voted for single fedarative or unitarian state of Russia, Ukraine and Belorussia.

Opposers of the union:
19% - Belorussia
15% - Russia and
36% - Ukraine.

For a unitarian state voted (from those who are for the union):
38% of Russians
43% of Ukrainians and
57% of Belorussians

For a federation:
36%;
16%;
15% respectively

Meanwhile
31% of Russians,
28% of Ukrainians,
36% of Belorussians think there is nor separate nations and Russian nation is monoethnic while
34% of Russians,
63% of Ukrainians and
48% of Belorussians opposed this point of view.

1700 participants were quized in Russia, 1100 in Ukraine and 1000 in Belorussia.

[The_Last_Word]

Is that all you got?

Andrei Boholyubskiy sacked Kiev in 1169. How can such a renagade prince, along with his descendants, lay clam to Kievan Rus'? Another, conveniently skirted, link contributing to the contorted Russian logic.

Does this event make it convenient for you to believe that Russia came from a "renegade" province? That it was ruled by descendants of Prince Andrei Bogolyubsky, whose son had no heir?
You are one true agitprop monkey with no grasp of history whatsoever.

For your information, Kiev was sacked by many princes:

In 1146, Prince Iziaslav Mstislavich of Pereyaslavl Russky sacked Kiev and defeated Prince Igor Olegovich.
In 1169, Prince Andrei Bogolyubsky leads an alliance of Russian princes to sack and destroy Kiev.
In 1199, Prince Roman Mstislavich of Volyn and Galich sacks Kiev.
In 1202, Prince Roman Mstislavich of Volyn and Galich sacks Kiev again and kicks out prince Rurik Rostislavich.
In 1204, Prince Rurik Rostislavich sacks and destroys Kiev and kicks out prince Roman Mstislavich.
In 1238-39, Prince Daniel Romanovich of Galich and Volyn sacks Kiev and plants his regent their.
In 1240, the Mongols destroy Kiev.

So, does this mean that Galich, Volyn and others are also renegade provinces? According to your logic, they are, but according to objective historians all provinces were authentically Russian.
Maybe you never heard of the quarrels between Russian princes in the appanage period of Kievan Rus? But I can understand, this was, after all, Russian history, not Ukrainian, so you are, of course, not familiar with it.

[Stephen_Bailey]

Wow !!!!! " Agitprop". That's a word I haven't heard for a while.

I wanted to be a Zampolit, when I was a kid. never achieved the ambition, unfortunately.

S.B.