The greate RUS or why Ukrain's afraid of union with Russia.

[ILay]

Hello Lina!

You are right, I'm from St.Pete. I work in shipping industry and we hire people from different parts of Russia to work on the vessels we manage.

Statistics show that the most expensive workforce for us in in St.Pete; the wages are about 10-15% lower in Rostov, Novorossiysk etc. (but the qualification is lower) and down to 3 times lower than in Ukraine.

Of course I am not mentioning the creme de la creme of the workers - their wages are all about the same around Europe (both in Russia and Ukraine meaning about 40% lower than in USA)

Re business environment: we researched the market to open a shipping agency in Ukraine. We found out that you should pay USD 30,000.- for the license and it would take months whereas in Russia you would pay USD 500 and spend one week.

And well, of course I know in Kiev the salaries are not much (if at all) lower than in St.Pete and I also know it's even easier to find a job for a professional.

[Lina]

Thanks for a reply!

QUOTE:
Re business environment: we researched the market to open a shipping agency in Ukraine. We found out that you should pay USD 30,000.- for the license and it would take months whereas in Russia you would pay USD 500 and spend one week.

Damn beurocrats! It's insane!
I guess I was right at least about "...unfriendly laws"

[NORRYM]

Part of the thread topic, as termed by its STARTER, is "GREATE {sic} RUS {sic}". If the STARTER means GREATER RUS', the thread is dead in the water. There was never a GRATER OR SMALLER RUS', consequently there is little to discuss on that subject. There was, however, KIEVAN RUS'. The STARTER claims he wants to learn yet, when one draws on independent historical data, he dissmisses it as just another opinion. The STARTER feigns weakness, youth and thirst for knowledge yet, after one teaches him, he goes back to his reservoir of distorted information to reconfuse the issue. It is high time to end this charade, and to advise the STARTER to start learning in earnest or to pack his schoolbags.


emkay/02/24/01

[Edited by NORRYM on 25th February 2001 at 07:12]

[Arkadi_]

Hello, and the STARTER means "Great Rus"
(Not Big Rus)
Alright,
I Arkadi Sergeevich Dobriahin, being in clear concience and healthy state of mind, do claim that I want to learn...

Ok, now that that's out of the way...

to Steve Vlasenko:
I have frends here from Odessa, Sevostopol... They claim that in there sailors, as well as people of other ocupations, ocasionally organize little demonstrations in front of Ukrainian officials, they claim that Russian flags hanging from the balconies, and sighns like "Russia is our homeland" have became a usual thing, and a constant headak to the Ukrainian officials.
But you are right, that dosen't happen much in less urban areas.
_______
Irena
What do you mean Russia's war liknes?
Give me a couple of wars that Russia started,
_______
Also to Norrym beckause I haven't seen your teaching sertificate, I can't take yours or anyone elses words without doubt. There for after reading your ideas I attack, or dismiss them in order to get you to defend them, and there for prove them to me (if it is possible). I am sorry, if that ofends you, I came here simply for inlightment.
to continue the argument
If Ukrane was so badly treated during the Emperial Russia, how come the revolution started in ST-Petersburg and not in Kiev?

[ILay]

For those who want to know what some of the Ukrainians think about the topic (and can read Russian) please read the thread on one of the most popular Russian forums:

ГДЕЯЭ: дНМАЮЯЯС - ПСЯЯЙХИ ЪГШЙ! (ОНВЕЛС ЛШ МЕ пНЯЯХЪ)

3 pages long

what Russians think about the union with Ukraine - read
ГДЕЯЭ: цПЮФДЮМЕ пНЯЯХХ, Ю БЮЛ МСФМН ЕДХМНЕ ЦНЯСДЮПЯРБН Я сЙПЮХМНИ?

4 pages long

On the left side there is a place shown there the author is from.

[NORRYM]

Great Rus', Velika Rus' or Greater Rus' exists only in your chauvinist Russian head. Russians are notorious for adding adjectives to make room for their imperialistic foot. Once they get in the door, one cannot pry them off. So, once again, quit pushing this 'great and greater' terminology, for it as not supported by history. No need for a history diploma to prove that.

Your young, but thick, scull needs an open mind to grasp what is being said. I stated, that I draw on INDEPENDENT HISTORICAL SOURCES and you persist on going to anecdotal examples or to your transparently distorted baggage from Russian indoctrination.

The lesson is over. If it does not ring the bell - you are a hopeless case. This thread is a FRAUD AND A SUBTERFUGE.

emkay/02/25/01

[The_Last_Word]

Going back to the earlier threads.
There actually was a voluntary reunification of the Ukraine and Russia in 1654. There was also a similar union between Russia, Georgia and Armenia in the past. There was also a movement of Carpathian Russians and Galicians at the beginning of the 20th century to break free from Austria and Hungary and join Russia and the Soviet Union. Today, there are active movements for reunification into one state of such countries as Belarus, Russia, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and even Serbia. A movement of the Crimea to join Russia was put down by Ukrainian authorities in the past decade. I am sure however, there are many people in Ukraine who want to join Russia today. There are probably very few Russians in Russian who want to see Ukraine become part of their country.

Stasua,
If you won▓t delete my thread, then tell me what language Ukrainians will speak in the EU, English, German or Polish, if they▓ll ever be accepted there?
And don▓t tell people whether to refer to Ukraine as NA or V, until you can learn to refer to Russia as Russia and not Muscovy.
The so-called ⌠Ukrainian■ intelligentsia sent to prisons or Siberia were sent, along with Russians, for anti-government activity, not for their nationality or language. Much worse things went on in Poland and Austria in regard to the Russian native population, which you don▓t care to mention.

Lippychick,
This refers to Stasua as well,
Let▓s not forget the many years in the 19th and 20th centuries when Ukrainian nationalists from Galicia tried to destroy the native culture of Carpathian Rus and the rest of Little Russia with financial aid from Germany and Austria. And don▓t forget Galicians▓ loyalty to Hitler▓s Reich in the process of genocide of the Russian-speaking native population of Galicia. During those times tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people were exterminated in concentration camps, such as Talerhof, just because those people didn▓t give in to heavy discrimination and refused to call themselves Ukrainians.
There are books written on this, if you didn▓t know.

Arkadi,
I agree with you about the lesson Russians learned from lost unity a thousand years ago. But you must understand that while Russia was born as Kievan Rus a long time ago, Ukraine was born in Poland and Austria and many Ukrainians today pretend to be the spiritual, cultural and ethnic descendents of the Kievan Rus legacy.
The future of the Ukraine is in its disintegration into several states. It is obvious that there are way too many differences between the people of Galicia, Carpathian Rus, Kiev, Donbass, Crimea, etc. After that happens, the people of each region can independently choose their future, whether with the EU or with Russia, or elsewhere.

Norrym,
You don▓t know the history of Kievan Rus and Russia of the Moscow period, so retorting with your lame quotation from Davies about the term Rossiya and 1380 won▓t save your face. What you claim to be ⌠uncorrupted sources■ are the pseudo-historians who try to invent a history of a country (Ukraine) that never existed. There were no renegade provinces in Kievan Rus. After it split up, after Vladimir Monomakh, all provinces were equally independent to a degree. If you▓re referring to Prince Andrei Bogolyubsky of Vladimir, he was the Grand Prince of Kiev in the 12th century. He moved his residence from Kiev to Vladimir in the Suzdal-Rostov land and kept the title. It was nothing extraordinary since this happened many times.
The name Rossiya was a modification of Rus. It was not adopted in 1380, as some pseudo-historians would have you believe. Byzantine Greeks called Rus Rosia, and gradually the term Rossia was used on par with Rus and Rusia (Roos-ia) both in southwestern Russia (Galicia, Kiev, etc.) and in Moscow and Novgorod. I extensively answered to this claim in the History forum.
The Russians of Moscow stayed true to the teachings of Russian princes Yaroslav the Wise and Vladimir Monomakh to stay united and not quarrel to preserve Russian unity and the Orthodox faith.
In Galicia, one part of the population under Polish-Catholic guidance and protectorate was persecuting the other part of the population that didn▓t want to become Catholic or call themselves Ukrainian.
While many Russian princes, boyars and peasants ran from Lithuania and Poland to Russia to join its ranks of guardians of Russian unity and protectors of Orthodoxy, there were never any calls to take Kiev or other parts of old Kievan Rus. The call came from Zaporozhian Cossacks in the name of Bogdan Khmelnitsky in the 17th century. The Russian tsar didn▓t even respond to the offer for several years, because it may not have been worthwhile for Russia to go to war with Poland over Kiev. But in the end, the Cossack hetmans voted to join Russia, for which they had a lot of respect.

┘the Russians agreed, we could start referring to them, as 'Little Ukrainians'.

You might want to see a psychiatrist about that, Norrym. In the meantime, don▓t forget to take your pills

Irena,
You should acknowledge that there are several very different nationalities living in the Ukraine itself. The one you come from is very different from the Russians, but others are much closer. Don▓t tell me that the people of Donbass, Crimea and Carpathian Rus are the same as those in Galicia and Volynia, because they are not.