Future (chances) of Ukraine

[steve_vlasenko]

The Statue of Cromwell springs to mind.

We didn't sling Thatcher in shipping canal when see decimated the heavy industries in the north west.

Ukraine is going it's own way. Stephen I work there, I don't visit on holidays, I'm acutely aware of the problems faced by the fledgling democracy. I'm also aware that the communist ain't the part in power.

Democracy ain't easy and that's why there's so much pain in the country. Ukraine could have a higher GDP if it adopted the White-Russian model, but Kuchma has opted for greater spending on welfare. It's still bugger all in western terms.

What tents? Are you referring to the Kuchma demo? People are aware of this and the 'shuffling' past is due to pressures daily life, if you need to earn a living you ain't got time to lie in the road.

Apathy is purported to be the Ukrainian disease, but as I've posted before action never get reported. See Norryms topic.

Take Care,

Vlas

[Bartosz]

Dear friends! Thanks for applause, I'm back.

Measuring the others by ones own yard stick is ugly custom, but at least lets learn something about the interlecutor. Even if he is repeating his infantile hackneyed truths.

Steve, you make me belive in invariable things in the space.

As for reason of creating this little discussion: it's very simple; just curiosity.

Situation of Ukraine is interesting. All economical indicatiors prove that living there is harder than in Russia, what makes this state be more and more dependent on its eastern neighbour. Generally Ukrainians earn (GDP per head is a good example), eat and spend less than Russians , and in some degree at these last expense (gas).

In addition culturally Russia dominates Ukraine. Not only because on Ukraine lives numerous Russian minority (22% of Russian nationality), but also because most of Ukrainians are Russian or bilingual speaking (exept these from nasty Polish occupation - guess what language do they speak? Svahili?).

So called, dominating on Ukraine elites, seem to be rather oriented on Russian, not western european model of economy. What recent events on Ukrainian political scene seem to produce the evidences (Yushchenko).

In addition Ukrainians living in Ukraine don't like these from diaspora (they don't like to follow good suits - 'http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=482463').

It seems to me that Ukraine tends towards economic and political union with Russia, in accordance with aspirations of most of the population and politicians.

N'est pas?

Some interesting indicators are accessible on the following sites:

'http://www.xist.org'
'http://www.economist.com/countries/Russia'
'http://www.economist.com/countries/Ukraine'
'http://www.un.org/Pubs/CyberSchoolBus/infonation/e_glance.htm'
'http://www.worldbank.org'

Steve, could I see you for a moment? Drop me a line. J'adore your harsh, man's style... (it Resambles me this of Rene from 'Alo, Alo!').

[Irena]

Bartosh,
don't gloat over...
Really, the situation is sh!t. We are slidding down to all devils with "hope of the Nation" Ushchenko-semolina which can't be in opposition, Chernomyrdyn - "new Prime-minister" etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
Bartosh, don't rejoice at our situation. You don't know what will be with you and your country tommorow. And I wouldn't be glad from your misfortune.

[Bartosz]

Irena, your reasoning doesn't appeal me.

The case of Ukraine I treat as a kind of curiosity, without needless excitements. Suicidal tendences of the nations and states aren't exeption in our region, Belarus is the best example. Ukrainians follow this suit.

Everything is relative. What's tragic for you seems to be desirable for most of Ukraina's citizens. Sociologically your attitude seems to be egoistic. Or you simply consider you know better what most of your compatriots trully need.

My country also made up his mind to unify, but with a bit different partner. Generally people share this trend (55% in recent pools, 12% of declared opponents), as in Ukrainian case. This unification is to be dane because alliance with stronger partner(EC) seems to be profitable for both sides. I haven't heard about cultural treats for Polish identity, exept of course these propagated by ultra nationalistic extremists (notion probably unimaginable for Steve). Polish culture has rather strong position in Western Europe.

Since subordination of Belarus we can't count on true security buffer phisically separating us from Russia, so Ukraine in this role has no further use.

[Irena]

Originally posted by Bartosz

Since subordination of Belarus we can't count on true security buffer phisically separating us from Russia, so Ukraine in this role has no further use.

Bartosh,

I understood. You consider Ukraine of sitting on the fence.
As a buffer from Russia.
But you come to my home and start to strew salt on my wounds. I said you: the situation is more sh!t than someone thinks. Are you satisfied?
As for your country... I'm glad for your country. Go on in the same spirit.

[volodymyr_gusak]

Bartosh,

I have met many nationalities in the college where I am now... the main issue here is called "International Understanding", if we had a few people like you the spirit of Understanding would be completely destroyed... Queen Noor, being the president of United World Colleges would be sad too. Reading your messages made me feel disgust to you as a person. Your arguments are strong, and I like the way you can handle them, however you make some people feel down, which cannot be justified by the fact that you are a Pole. Curiosity is not good enough either. Irena unfortunately became your victim, though it would not work with me, because I study economics too and read news every day... in other words you did not give me any more info than I knew already! What I hope for is that in the nearest future Ukraine will raise, it is not an easy way but with the help of people who have means it is possible. I truly hope that our neighbour Poland, will become DEVELOPED it would benefit everyone. Russia is doing twice better then Ukraine if you take GNP per capita, but take the HDI, and you see that illiteracy (females 15+) is 0.7 and in Ukraine it is 0.5 you can always check it http://www.worldbank.org.
Have fun! Enjoy development in your country!
PS.What do you have against Russia's development?

[Bartosz]

volodymyr_gusak:

To err is human, I've got impression that even economy students come under this law.

Let me not assume attitude towards sentimental part of your post, I don't feel predisposed for.

"What I hope for is that in the nearest future Ukraine will raise, it is not an easy way but with the help of people who have means it is possible" -
what kind of rising do you mean?

"I truly hope that our neighbour Poland, will become DEVELOPED it would benefit everyone" - hoping is one and sober thinking the other. Per year are invested in Poland 7 bilions U$. Our annual growth is spinning around 4%, what lets presume that in 20 years we will attain level of present Greece. Is Greece a developped country?

"[...]you see that illiteracy (females 15+) is 0.7 and in Ukraine it is 0.5[...]" - maybe the problem is in the quality? Taking under account the atchievments of course...

"[...]What do you have against Russia's development?[...]" - nothing. How did you derive that?

PS. A huge part of Russian national product make crude oil and gas export, expecially because of lasting since 2 years growth of the prices. I wonder why so smart economy student didn't present this fact. Incarned politeness?

PS1. Inform your sesitive friend Irena that I got from some Ukrainian discutants from the other boards links to the results of the recent pools negating my opinion on proportions between followers and opponents of the unification with Russia . If I find a confirmation in western medias I will rush to inform you.