Yulia summoned

[sjoyce]

Not being very knowledgable about the intricacies of Ukrainian politics, I was a bit dismayed to see Yulia has been summonsed to court. It seems several of her ministers are being asked questions and possibly charges laid. Does Mr. president think he can jail all of these people and continue to rape the country himself and his buddies? This is like the pot calling the kettle black!

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Kathy

Please don't make a martyr of any of these criminals. No oligarch or politician in Ukraine got rich by producing anything, or making a contribution to society.

That's a very sober and realistic view.

The tricky thing with the charges against Timoshenko is that if somebody claims that they are political in nature, he is probably wrong and right at the same time. Wrong because she surely is a criminal. And right because she's not the only criminal around. And if law is applied to criminals from one political faction, while the criminals from the other faction are untouched, then it's actually a political matter, even if all the charges made are valid.

[sjoyce]

I do not support her. I think (only my humble opinion) many of those in gov't not just opposition lawmakers should be charged. How many heads rolled for many of the oligarcs to gain their wealth at a cost to the Ukrainian people? How does a fireman become a billionaire?

[bkrevel]

re: discussions this post.....

In Ukraine , the politics of past and current governments were, and remain very very convoluted and complex, and most disgustingly....CORRUPT....(especially with the current Yanukovych)....

What do I mean.

We, who live in working democracies, (I in Canada); look and observe what takes place in Ukraine.......then give our critisicsm, according to what our democratric experiences are.

Many posts reflect the view,,,,,how does this happen,,,how can Yanuk change the Constitution, ,,,how can he let Russia in the BSFleet, how can journalists disappear or get beat up,,,how can the head of SBU own a TV monopoly, then state 'There is no conflict',,,rigged elections in 04 and 09 and Oct 31,,how can he prosecute Yulia? ..,,etc, etc


One cannot make comparisons to what we have,,,,,,and what Ukraine has.(sadly)

Ukraine is a democracy, in name, only .

There have been 13 gov'ts in 20 years,,,,,,and progress down the road of a 'workable' democracy has progressed only a few short steps, sadly.

The oligarchs and corrupt politicians do as they please,,,,,,which pisses me off to no end!!!

I, as a Ukrainian Canadian, who visited last year, (and will be again this year) know that the people will put up with only so much. Ukraine will become a poweful economic force in Europe.

The tide will turn, and Ukraine will become a workable democracy,,,,,,,,the question is,,,,,,how long will it take.

Some countries struggled for centuries to become democracies; and I am not suggesting it will not take Ukraine that long (after all, they have the benefit to learn from countries who enjoy working democracies)

I pray and wish for the citizens of Ukraine to be able to live in and under a working democracy......which one day ,,,,,,THEY WILL!!

BLESS UKRAINE!!


.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by bkrevel

In Ukraine , the politics of past and current governments were, and remain very very convoluted and complex, and most disgustingly....CORRUPT....(especially with the current Yanukovych)....

Yes, they are definitively very corrupt, your choice of capital letters is very correct. One might add though, that it's not just the politics, but many areas of life.

We, who live in working democracies, (I in Canada); look and observe what takes place in Ukraine.......then give our critisicsm, according to what our democratric experiences are.

Yes, definitively. People try to understand things by applying their own experiences, and when the only experiences they have are from Canada or US, then they are simply "ill-equipped" to understand situation in Ukraine.

And it's not just about politics, but also about the situation with law and functioning of the society. In short, there is a huge amount of lawlessness in Ukraine, and corruption and mafia ties are usually above the law.

I, as a Ukrainian Canadian, who visited last year, (and will be again this year) know that the people will put up with only so much. Ukraine will become a poweful economic force in Europe.

Very unlikely. The problems are too serious, too deeply ingrained. I think it's kind of a "critical mass" problem - the question is, is the sum of the problems above, or below critical mass.

Originally Posted by Kathy

I reject this argument. Why haven't Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary, etc., which are also "young democracies" suffered the same fates?

My belief is that the foregoing countries did one thing which was important. If you were a member of the communist party, as a former member of the criminal regime, you were banned from participating in political life for a certain period. That allowed stabilization.

Can't comment on Czech Republic or Hungary, but you are actually very wrong about Poland. There was no ban, even a temporary one. And in my opinion, it did have a lot of negative consequences, the present condition of Poland is not something achived due to a ban, because there was none, it is something achived DESPITE lack of such ban. Which I personally regret.

Actually, there is a significant amount of propaganda concerning the transformation in Poland, propaganda both for internal and external use. It's presented as a success, or even a model success, while in reality it's rather questionable. The final result is of course positive, but since it's positive even without a ban, one might suspect that the results would be better if we had one.

BTW the problems we had in Poland actually remind me of Ukraine's problems, although there were probably much smaller, like a miniature, and obviously well below critical mass.

As to why Ukraine is having problems bigger than Poland, Czech Republic, etc etc, I think it's not simply a matter of a single mistake, it's deeply ingrained issue, linked with culture and history. The communist rule had a destructive effect on the way people thought about concepts like law, goverment, work, ethics and so on. This effect can be probably best observed in Germany, which was split into two parts, and the eastern part is still "culturally damaged" compared the western one. In case of Poland and other countries, the effect was smaller because the Soviet rule was indirect and had a shorter duration. In case of Ukraine, the Soviet rule was direct, and the bigger part of it was under communist rule for about 40% longer.