Ukraine & NATO

[stepanstas]

I would like for every single member of this board to tell me his or her views about this topic.

From what most people see, most of Ukraine is against this (and so is russia) but as of now I am not.

If you know me I enjoy talking about topics such as these and expect a lot of opinions on this one.

I understand that relations with russia will be ruined.
But if this is what is effecting your decision, please tell me why.

As of now NATO has a bad rep and mainly because of Bush. He has ruined (and I emphasize ruined) a lot of nations. I would clearly not like for this to happen to Ukraine (and I know it wont). This is the 2nd peice of the pie that Ukraine needs. Gauranteed protection.

I understand that russia has gas, and that is its main threat against us. But may I remind you that russia has cut off our gas in the past? What kind of neighbor is that? The truth is everyone russia is convincing our own people about how to feel. That does not make me happy.

I hate the fact that so many Ukrainians are listening to him (Putin). HE HAS NOT DONE ONE THING FOR UKRAINE.

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On a second point, what an embaracement the protests have caused. After all, people may not like the USA as much as they did before, but the still know it more than Ukraine and the first visit to Ukraine (such a memorable thing) taken away. This makes it seem as if Ukraine is a dictatorship.

My view is that people should stop listening to the communists. Start listening to your hearts.

P.S. As you know, I am usually really strong and firm on these topics, but this time I am not. Many people close to me are against NATO and one main reason for this post is to get more views from people and see what makes more sence for me.

[Stirlitz]

I am against any military blocs and want Ukraine to stay neutral. Actually I do not see why Ukraine cannot be like Switzerland in many respects including neutrality.

May I remind that not all European countries let alone the world are part of Nato. Some of them entered, left, reentered NATO several times, like Greece, France and others if I am not mistaken.

I simply do not see the need to join NATO. I believe we should be active in local cooperation at all levels: Russia, Belarus, Poland, Hungary, etc. Why join a North-Atlantic bloc?

However, I see reasons why we should not do it. Angering Russia is one of them whatever you think about Russia. Then, readjusting all of our military to NATO means a lot of costs, losses, shuffles and turmoil. All of our military complex was designed in the USSR. Plants, standards, paperwork, equipment and hardware — it is all going to need replacement or tailoring. Not to mention the fact that our ‘patriotic’ officials will gladly use this opportunity to increase the welfare of our nation. By our nation they of course understand themselves alone (ordinary Ukrainians are nothing more than fools to take advantage of for them). That is there is going to be a lot of schemes when machinery, weapons, equipment will vanish, property will be sold, etc. We will see another ‘privatization’ of 1990s which was actually grab and run. A lot of people are going to lose jobs, a lot of funds will be spent by the government, huge losses. I see no justification for that.

[Albatross]

Thanks for the topic Stepanstas.

Well here's what i think. Nato is largely a relict from the past and its current purpose is not very clear. Yes, Ukraine is dependent on Russia for energy but a Nato membership won't fix that. A Nato membership won't bring Ukraine much, except more internal political struggle, which is really not helpful. Ukraine should better focus on solving its numerous internal problems (i don't need to state the obvious here) and on achieving economic growth. In the mean time, it should rely on itself for defending its borders.

[stepanstas]

Thank you for the feedback guys. I spend the whole day reading information about NATO and I got to learn a bit of history about it.

Stirlitz, the only country that came out of NATO was France, and yes it did join again.

I understand completely the advantages of a neutral country. Right now we do not have to worry about much. Only one country (wont mention any names) wants to take complete control of us and threatens us day to day. Most people may see this as a good thing, and you know what, things can be worse.

Here is the thing about NATO, its protection. It's knowing that whatever happens, we will have support by a large group of people, no matter what.

I quote "The Parties of NATO agreed that an armed attack against one or more of the in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all." As you can see, NATO will only can (and of course so will we) if there is an attack on someone in NATO. Will it happen? I highly doubt it due to the protection and reputation that NATO has. That is the point.

I of course can understand russia's frustration in this. The sole purpose of NATO was for protection from the Soviet Union. Now it's similar, for the isolation of russia. In the past and even in my should lifetime russia has not been a good neighbor to us. Russia is not a nation that I can personally trust and rely on in case of any emergency that would happen.

NATO would only provide us with support in case of attack, similarly, it will have no effect on any other fuctions of our great nation.

Will it take money? Yes, but doesn't everything. We are talking about an investment, not a loss. Our army is great, but I think we can agree that we don't always have the best. We would have (if we had to upgrade) better tools and not a penny would go to waste.

Albatross, some of your comment has been replied on above, but also you are correct in saying that NATO will not fix our problem with energy or gas or anything. As I said, NATO is there for protection of our nation.

Will it change much, I say yes. We will be that much closer to the better side of things and that much closer to a progression. Technically it will change nothing at all, so why are you in such opposition of it?

Also, I think we all know that Ukraine is not the best at its borders. That needs to be fixed, but thats not all of it. There are many things that Ukraine has to think about and worry about. This is not one of them. This is not a worry. This I belive is what we need.

[Max_the_Highlander]

Cool topic, Stepan. The biggest problem is NATO joining has not mass support among Ukrainians and this is sad truth.

Similar situation was in Latvia when this problem was overcame by agitation and edicational campaign. I hope, this can be done in Ukraine too so it will change the mass opinion.

NATO is friend of Ukraine, Bush (who just was in Kyiv with visit) also never is threat, especially after eating vareniks with cherry in Ukraine.

This joining is highly desired for us but the Russia here consists the biggest problem.

Yes, they pressure us openly. This is bold open pressure and gas "blackmail".

Do they have the right to do so? NO. It's violence.

In Ukraine the relation to NATO is the most liberal on the West (where I live) and the most negative on the East and South, where many "Russian-speaking Ukrainians" live. Obviously, they consider the NATO as threat genetically.

Isn't it additional reason to join and prove our complete independence and courage?

Yeah, we need just push our way through.

[Albatross]

Originally Posted by stepanstas

Albatross, some of your comment has been replied on above, but also you are correct in saying that NATO will not fix our problem with energy or gas or anything. As I said, NATO is there for protection of our nation.

Russia's military budget is peanuts (just 3% orso) compared to that of the US. So at present, despite chauvinistic rethoric from the Kremlin, Russia is not really a military thread to the world. And since protection for a threat that currently doesn't exist obviously isn't necessary, Nato serves no longer a useful purpose.

Russia's power play with Ukraine in the energy conflict is quite uncivilised and very bad PR for Russia internationally, but it doesn't equate a territorial claim or a military threat. That's just too great a leap of thought.

So my conclusion remains: Ukraine will gain no real advantage by joing Nato, while it will lose a lot (1) more internal political struggle, (2) less focus on its real problems and (3) a further deterioration of relations with Russia.

[Stirlitz]

I don’t believe we should join NATO just because some people are so hostile toward Russia that they seriously believe Russia is going to attack Ukraine. And, if you hint at gas wars I do not think that NATO membership will alleviate it at all. It can make things worse for sure but I do not see how it can influence Gazprom.