Ukraine & NATO

[nikolai]

Unlike any other eastern european country, millions of citizens of Ukraine are ethnic Russians. And millions more have mixed Ukrainian/Russian ethnic heritage. Many of these people have relatives in Russia. And their loyalties are divided when it comes to disputes between Russia and the West.

I don't think Ukrainian military will be a reliable NATO ally because of these divided loyalties among Ukrainian citizens. And by joining NATO, Ukraine will polarize and divide many of its own citizens along Russian/Ukrainian ethnic lines. Which is not in the national interests of Ukraine.

Perhaps there aren't that many true nationalists in Ukraine who care about their whole country and who seek to unite their country. And that's why many ethnic ukrainians in western Ukraine don't care about what their fellow citizens in eastern Ukraine want as far as joing NATO goes.

And the other countries who support Ukrainian government's bid to join NATO are doing it in order to serve their own national interests and not those of Ukraine. Which is understandable. Countries usually act in their own national interests, unless they are divided internally the way Ukraine is.

[stepanstas]

Wow, A lot of interesting points.

Max, From what I am getting, they only do not support (publically) the decision to join NATO because they are thinking of Russia. France and Germany are strong nations. They should not have another country decide for them.

bm-21lemko - I doubt that Ukraine will use the Euro even though I would love for that to happen. Ukraine currently uses Hryvna and Dollar as the second currently. I think Ukraine should transition into using the Euro more. See, with any big purchases or any big jobs, the people will ask for dollars. Euro is worth more and I think Ukraine should use that. Either way, US Dollar is dropping right now while Euro is not.

Since Ukraine is mainly focused on the US dollar as a secondery currency, I dont think Ukraine is anywere close to adopting the Euro.

nikolai - The people which you speak of live in Ukraine and for that purpose they should be interested in whats best for Ukraine. I do not feel that most people are against it. One one or two people here have been against NATO.

Most people are against it because it is in the family (everyone else is against it and so are they) or they are paid off to be against it. Not many can provide actual reason for not joining Nato.

I like what Yuschenko and Tymoshenko said. That we should not be influenced by a country that is not even part of the aliance (russia). And that we are an independent nation and when I comes to others making decisions, we do not interfer with them and nobody should do that to us.

[nikolai]

Originally Posted by stepanstas

Wow, A lot of interesting points.

....
nikolai - The people which you speak of live in Ukraine and for that purpose they should be interested in whats best for Ukraine. I do not feel that most people are against it. One one or two people here have been against NATO.
....

The opinions of 4 of 5 people some of whom don't even live in Ukraine is hardly representative of what people in Ukraine want.

And I do agree that people who live in Ukraine should be more patriotic than they've been until now. Too many people in Ukraine are ethnic nationalists who are dividing their country along ethnic lines instead of uniting it.

Despite the fact that there are some large parts of Ukraine where ethnic Russians are the majority. The Ukrainian constitution has imposed Ukrainian language as the only official language for everybody. And this makes people in places like Crimea feel that they are being ruled by a foreign government.

How is the Russian minority supposed to feel welcome in Ukraine. When the Ukrainian majority refuses to recognize their basic rights?

The fact is that Ukraine is already badly polarized and divided along ethnic lines. And joining NATO will only make these ethnic divisions worse.

According to the latest poll in Ukraine, most people there are against joining NATO:
UNIAN - 59% of Ukraine citizens would vote against Ukraine▓s NATO membership √ poll

[stepanstas]

nikolai,

Wow again, I was amazed to see your opinion on something.

I will get into that later, first, many people who are voting against it are being paid off as I said earlier. Also, many are just not educated. They do not know why they are against it, they just are.

Now the shocker to me. YOU FEEL THAT RUSSIAN SHOULD BE MADE INTO AN OFFICIAL LANGUAGE. SHAME, SHAME, SHAME.

I DO NOT KNOW MUCH ABOUT YOU, BUT IF YOU SUPPORT THIS, YOU ARE CRAZY.

BASIC RIGHTS? WHAT, HAVING THEIR STUPID LANGUAGE AS AN OFFICAL ONE IS RIGHT? THEY ALREADY SPEAK THE LANGUAGE ON THE STREET, I THINK THATS ENOUGH.

[nikolai]

Originally Posted by stepanstas

.....
Now the shocker to me. YOU FEEL THAT RUSSIAN SHOULD BE MADE INTO AN OFFICIAL LANGUAGE. SHAME, SHAME, SHAME....
[/b]

Perhaps this may come as a surprise for you. But article 22 in the European Charter of Human Rights (which is the law for EU nations) says, "The Union shall respect cultural, religious and linguistic diversity."
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf

If Ukraine ever hopes to become a member of the EU. Then its government has to be prepared to amend the Ukrainian constitution in order to respect the linguistic diversity of Ukraine.

A good example of what can happen when the government doesn't respect linguistic diversity of its people is the French separtist movement in Canada. The French in Canada's province of Quebec were upset about the lack of respect for their language in Canada. And they've nearly succeeded in breaking up Canada and separating the province of Quebec from Canada. The only reason why they've failed to separate was because the Canadian government has made both English and French the official languages of Canada.

And another good example is Switzerland, which has four official languages. The only reason why Switzerland hasn't broken up and ceased to exist a long time ago is because it has remained neutral and didn't get involved in any military alliances in Europe.

Switzerland is made up of Germans, Italians, and French. And during the long history of Switzerland. Germany, Italy, and France have all fought against each other in military conflicts.

There is no way Switzerland could've maintained its unity if it had taken sides and participated in any of those conflicts.

The same is true for Ukraine. If Ukraine joins NATO and there is a military conflict between Russia and NATO. Then you can be 100% sure that Ukraine will split right down the middle along its ethnic lines beween Russians in the east and Ukrainians in the west.

[stepanstas]

nikolai,

YOU MAKE NO SENCE AT ALL

First of all, you did not answer me as why russian should be an official language. You just told me about other countries and the EU.

Now moving on to your EU Charter of Human Rights.

Article 22
Cultural, religious and linguistic diversity
The Union shall respect cultural, religious and linguistic diversity.

Now, watch this.

1, Ukraine does not force anyone to speak Ukrainian. (which i think they should, but that is a different story)
2, In some schools only russian is spoken.
3, THE UNION SHALL RESPECT CULTURAL, RELIGIOUS, AND LINGUISTIC DIVERSITY.

YOU ARE ALLOWED TO SPEAK RUSSIAN IN UKRAINE. THAT IS RESPECT. MAKING RUSSIAN AN OFFICIAL LANGUAGE DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU RESPECT THE LINGUISTIC DIVERSITY.

[nikolai]

Originally Posted by stepanstas

nikolai,
....
1, Ukraine does not force anyone to speak Ukrainian. (which i think they should, but that is a different story)....[/b]

How do you propose that Russians in Ukraine should be forced to speak in Ukrainian language? Are you going to have policemen standing on street corners and arresting people for speaking in Russian language?

Perhaps this is the kind of thing German Nazis would've done to force people to speak in German. But I can't imagine a country which aspires to be a member of the EU doing that.

The problem with disrespecting other people's language and culture and forcibly assimilating them is that it's not going to be popular among the people who are being forced. In fact, it would be so unpopular that many of them will demand outright separation and independence from Ukraine.

But I'm not surprised at your attitude towards the Russians in Ukraine. You've just confirmed the point I was making earlier. Many people in Ukraine are such rabid ethnic nationalists that they are willing to destroy their country in order to promote their own ethnic group at the expense of others.