Ukraine & NATO

[stepanstas]

James,

The current things going on with NATO are Albania, Croatia are expected to join in 2009. The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia was vetoed by Greece.

As far as MAP, Ukraine and Georgia are expected this December. And Montenegro expected in 2010.

A lot of people will have different views on this, but noone can confirm anything and thats why i will not comment on that.

As far as NATO goes, it wont help people get money out. Not in my view at least. People are thinking of NATO as too much.

It only holds one prime focus. One for all and all for one.

James, I live in the USA. I know Bush has a low approval rating, but I have never heard his opinions on other things. Now i know what he stands for. He is a wise man.

People are blaming a lot on him. He did to some extent contribute to economy through the war. But Americans are looking for an easy way out and Bush is the easiest option. I like to talk facts, and my opinion is if you get a loan, pay it and know what you are signing. Can the bank be easier on this? Yes, but they dont have to be.

[Kathy]

Bush is not a wise man. He has gutted American popularity abroad, American rights, the notion of executive accountability, and made the world a far more dangerous place. The PNAC proposals he adopted were rejected by Netanyahu, Bill Clinton and most of the advisors who surrounded G.H.W. Bush, including such noted figures as James Baker and Brent Scowcroft.

Bush failed to do anything when Hurricane Katrina hit. Do you remember how aid starting coming? It was only when Anderson Cooper interviewed a Bush administration official on CNN and berated him, stating that he just could not believe what he was hearing.

The financial problems today started under Clinton, but were greatly exacerbated by the Bush administration. Stepan, it is far deeper than people defaulting on loans. America's economy has been growing partly because of deficit financing. Do you know who America's biggest creditor is? This should have been dealt with by Clinton, but it was derailed by the impeachment proceedings, and was completely ignored by Bush. Deficit financing is even being used to fund the war, which costs more than $2 billion a month.

I suggest you read more deeply. Read the pieces on The Atlantic, Slate, the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times (particularly Krugman, Dowd, Rich and Kristof), and Salon. You will get a variety of views (left and right) which will aid you in moving toward a more informed decision.

As for NATO, its raison d'etre has passed. The continued expansion is an attempt to keep it relevant, and ensure all those military officials keep their cushy posts in Brussels.

[stepanstas]

Look, a while ago I felt the same way about Bush because he did not focus on many things durring his presidency.

My personal views about the war is as follows. A country should be able to endorse ideas and help with ideas, but should not get involved. Bush did that, but it has also happened in the past with America. The truth is, America wants the whole world to be peaceful (and in the case with the current war, also gas). What many people don't understand is that a country should work these things out on their own.

"Give a man a fish, feed him for a day, Teach him how to fish, feed him for a lifetime."

In the most recent case with Kosovo. I side with russia on this one. Every country has problems of its own, but they should be worked out over time. Look at Ukraine. He had a rough life. Nobody, and I mean nobody, helped us. USSR kept a good hold on us and lied to everyone else. We did it ourselves and I think we are a very strong nation now. We can deal with these things and still come out well in the long run.

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To get back on track, it does not matter if Bush is not favored a lot by people now, he did a great thing, and i will always remember him for it. As mentioned before by someone the USD is the 2nd used currency in Ukraine. Everything effects us, but the USD is still stronger then Hryvna. I think we should stop looking at what is going on with the USA today (that could be another thread). We have a great president of our own and it is his duty to protect our county.

NATO does not equal Bush. Nato equals 26 nations together as one. In the past we as a nation had to fight large battles, and it took us a long time but we did it ourselves. Now we have a chance for someone to have our back, I say we take it (and i know we will in the longrun, i just want to put it in perspective for all others).

[JamesL]

Bush has been terrible for America. His legacy will be long remembered. It will be very difficult for America's next president to correct Bush's errors - Iraq, the economy and foreign trade, Open Borders and Terrorism. (Note that I separated Iraq and Terrorism.)

Accepting 2 bit countries like Croatia and Albania into NATO is bad for the USA. Nothing positive for the USA will come of this.

Ukraine is on the ropes. It is a country with a dual personality. Galicians welcomed Nazi invaders in September 1939. I have no doubt that eastern Ukraine will welcome Russian Guards Divisions with flowers if Vlad decides to cross the border. America and NATO should not be involved with that when it happens.

To restate: Ukraine should NOT become a member of NATO.

[stepanstas]

James,

Many people do not understand this. NATO does not equal USA. The USA has to do 1/26th of NATO. USA did not invent NATO and does not control it. One thing I love about NATO is thats its equal, if one member says NO, Its NO.

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Bush and war is a long story. Some say that he was given incorrect info and thats why he went into war some say otherwise. Honestly, I feel 9/11 was a setup and had almost nothing to do with Osama. Again, i don't want to get to far into this because thats not what the topic is about. About the border, the problem did not only exist with Bush, there is some corruption going on.

From what I understand, one governer does not want to put up a fence around his border. I think he is paid off.

And about correcting errors, look. McCain still wants the war and Obama and Hillary voted FOR the war. The only candidate that opposed the war 100% of the time was Kucinich, but he didn't have enough money to pay off the media.

Not a lot can change with an election. I know, ive been following a couple of them. There are almost no dictatorships these day and thats why it may be harder for the president to do things. Will all these problems be fixed? With the current candidates, NO.

[Max_the_Highlander]

Originally Posted by Kathy

No, I have seen too many things to be an idealist, Max. Though I always look to, and expect, the best in people.

Kathy, whatever I write inside my mind I smile as Cheshire cat. Don't you know it?

It was irony in my question about Yushchenko because I'm sure there is not such thing as honest politician or businessman. It just doesn't suit the sense of their job. We just hope for smaller degree of dishonesty in case with Victor and others.

I really think bureaucracy is the biggest problem of Ukraine but don't mix political leaders with bureaucrats. Politicians are paid guys but they are free in their move. I think all of them now realise the problems which bureaucracy consists for country... in reality, every new government begins its activity from new and new dismissals so this social group reduces every day.

And oranges are the most cruel to bureaucracy ones. All political teams are a bit beyond the system, you see.

Btw, I guess NATO membership will just help to beat the beast.

Originally Posted by JamesL

To restate: Ukraine should NOT become a member of NATO.

James, really, US is not NATO. It's ruled now by Europeans, from Brussels, didn't you notice that yet? There was struggle between American and European wings inside the NATO and last one won and leads now.

America was asking for Ukraine but Europe refused and set its own conditions. Now I perfectly understand why NATO gives itself as "structure of European safety".

The scenario with direct Russian military intervention is not probable at all. Gas pressure though is highly probable. On the whole, this pressing will be around the psychology and gas prises.

I dont think though US will have any bases on the territory of Ukraine at all. We are the special case and it will be counted. Likely, the doors will be open just for Europe cooperation, so you have not reasons to worry about American guys.

[stepanstas]

The poll is looking good.

Even though not a lot of people voted, i think that proves my point.

People in Ukraine mainly listen to family and friends, not facts. Most people don't even know why they dont want to be in NATO (my most people i mean in Ukraine). I am thankful for those who cared to read these views and offered theirs.

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Moving on, I wanted to ask, why is Georgia and Ukraine together on this? Who has a better chance of getting in if it was seperate. It seems that Ukraine is in the news, Bush supports Ukraine, and Ukraine is the one with the controversy, but we are grouped with Georgia, just wondering.