Ukraine & NATO

[JamesL]

As an American citizen I do not want Ukraine in NATO. I gather that NATO has rejected Ukraine's application.

Ukraine has a 3rd rate military which would require massive amounts of money to bring it up to speed. This money would probably come from the USA. The USA doesn't need another boat anchor around its neck.

Additionally, I do not want the 82nd Airborne Division dropped in eastern Ukraine if Ivan decides to visit and stay in Kiev.

Any country with nuclear tipped ICBMs deserves attention and should not be shunted aside as a non-threat.

Most of the comments deal with NATO providing Ukraine protection. How about Ukraine providing for its own protection?

[stepanstas]

As a begining note, NATO has delayed the acception of Ukraine and Georgia, but this does not mean we should stop arguing.

I will not repeat myself again, and will only answer new things. Some people remain with their current views and thats fine.

Someone stated that we should not be afraid of russia attacking us.

I am not afraid of that because i know that it will not happen. No matter how much russia wants Ukraine back, russia will not ruin or harm us. It is too far in civilization for both countries to do that. The only way this might happen is if Ukraine was to put up misscles pointing at russia which many people think will happen. That will never happen. What people don't understand is that NATO cannot force a member to do anything, it is the members choice.

You might be thinking why we need this then? Once again, protection, security, and going closer to the west. Something, at some point of time may happen, you never know. If it could happen to the USA and Britain and Middle eastern countries, it can happen anywhere.

And about going closer to the west. I had enought of the East. There is only one country east of us. We need to expand the have connections with others. I am not saying that we should break away from russia, but in life, you don't just have one friend.

JamesL, I can understand where you are comming from. I don't think the Ukrainian military is weak. Any event that Ukraine needed to use it, it succeded. Ukraine also had troops for some time in Iraq, and if that happened, I think the millitary is good. Can it get better? of course, but that does not mean that it will be any other countries responsability.

As a final note, JamesL, I would like to add this. If you feel that the millitary is not good enough, I qoute "...does not necessarily mean that other member states will respond with military action against the aggressor(s)." NATO is not all about the military or military action.

(Source: Quote from Wikepedia)

[Kathy]

Well, now those military powerhouses, Croatia and Albania, are part of NATO, James. Albania still has blood feuds and is one of the poorest, and most backward countries in Europe. And yet, they will be part of the EU.

Stepan, Ukrainian politicians were pushing NATO expansion because they are trapped. They are sitting on millions, even billions of dollars of ill gotten gains that they can't move out of Ukraine. They believe "someone else" will solve their problems. It would be a farce, were it not so tragic for the tens of millions of Ukrainians stuck under the incompetence, venality, and corruption of these idiots.

History demonstrates that the West has not been a friend of Ukraine. UPA was one of the few underground organizations that received no funding from the Allies during the war. The famine, the Yalta Conference, the forced repatriation of war prisoners and displaced persons, the continual denial of EU membership.

Ukraine cannot deny its geography. It is unfortunate that, yet again, it is lead by greedy, corrupt politicians who should have all been jailed after the coup.

[JamesL]

I don't see Croatia or Albania listed on the NATO website.

NATO Member Countries


Ukraine should not rely on anyone else bailing them out of their problems.

[Max_the_Highlander]

Originally Posted by JamesL

As an American citizen I do not want Ukraine in NATO. I gather that NATO has rejected Ukraine's application.

Well, people, just recent news. NATO prolonged Ukrainian and Georgian applications... to December. It's not "no", it's not "yes". Application will be considered over again soon. However, the Generel Secretary of NATO, Yan de Coop Sheffer, said in fact the question is solved positively but the time is needed to solve "temporary" problems.

In reality, Germany and France, the biggest economical shifters of Ukraine, refused because of fear of banal gas pressure and blackmail from the side of Russia.

And this is ONLY reason why applications were not accepted.

And btw this everything is not about joining the NATO... just about joining the plan of activities for gaining the membership or something like that.

Unlike the James, George Bush is the biggest promoter of our joining and so -thanks him so much. Is he popular or not in America, here he gained good dividends.

Originally Posted by Kathy

It is unfortunate that, yet again, it is lead by greedy, corrupt politicians who should have all been jailed after the coup.

Ouh... what a expression! All including Vicor Yushchenko for example whose hands "never stole" accordingly to Orange version?

Aren't you an idealist, Kathy?

[JamesL]

The most recent New York Times opinion poll shows that only 28% of Americans think President Bush is a good leader.

That said, he is a lame duck and one should not expect too much from him in the next few months.

[Kathy]

Originally Posted by JamesL

I don't see Croatia or Albania listed on the NATO website.

NATO Member Countries


Ukraine should not rely on anyone else bailing them out of their problems.

Uh, James, the issue arose because of the current round of NATO meeings. Albania and Croatia were accepted for NATO membership, while Ukraine and Georgia were rejected, because of Russian intervention. Macedonia was also rejected because of a no from Greece.

Nobody here said Ukraine should rely on anyone else to bail them out of their problems. It is my opinion that this is what Ukrainian leaders, not its people, expected. In fact, a majority of Ukrainians have always opposed NATO membership.

Ouh... what a expression! All including Vicor Yushchenko for example whose hands "never stole" accordingly to Orange version?

Aren't you an idealist, Kathy?

No, I have seen too many things to be an idealist, Max. Though I always look to, and expect, the best in people.

Read my posts. I never stated Yushchenko never stole. In fact, your Western compatriot accused me of heresy for suggesting that Yushchenko was also a thief. A member of the "selyanska intelligentsia" could not, in Soviet times, rise to prominence without dirtying his hands, and after the collapse of the USSR< could not have acquired the properties Yushchenko owns if he were completely honest.