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Why do men get suckered in?

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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 13th May 2002, 14:46
SweetNovember SweetNovember is offline
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Re: thanks, SweetNovember

Originally posted by elegua

Fortunately, both her parents are still together, and observing their relationship will hopefully give me a bit of insight into Natasha's character and personal views on relationships...she is very excited about me meeting her parents, grandmother, and sister. I'm taking this as a good sign, but of course only time will tell.
Another misconception. Here, couples stay on together not because of love, but because surivival in groups is easier. Relatives form a safety net that is not provided by the state and society. It is furthermore easier since people mostly stay in the cities where they were born. Relatives and spouses live in a perpetual love-hate relationship that solidifies with time. My grandma daily starts her mornings by yelling at my grandpa "YOU ARE A BLOODSUCKING BASTARD!!!! OH, HOW MUCH I WISH YOU WERE DEAD". She is 80, he is 85. They've been married for almost 60 yrs now.

We'll be looking out for you.

PS btw, where from is your sweetheart.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 13th May 2002, 19:35
elegua elegua is offline
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hi again SN

Ulysses -- You know a beautiful girl cheating on her rich husband? Wow, what a surprise, I thought that sort of thing only happened in story books Forgive my sarcasm, but if do you expect things like marital infidelity and marriages of convenience to be shocking or surprising? Hey, as a side note, I know a fairly rich middle-aged guy with a cute younger (but not exactly 'young') wife...he knows she cheats on him, and he in turn cheats on her with all sorts of ladies. What would be funny is if we know the same couple

Sweet November --
First, let me explain -- I am not taking it as a good sign that her parents are still together, I'm taking it as a good sign that she wants me to meet them...plus like I said it will allow me to observe their marriage dynamic, which would inevitably serve as some model for how she would see relationships. Of course it's entirely possible that the whole family could put on a show for me.

Second, I can be an idealist and a realist at the same time Most people call me 'cynical' despite the appearance I give in my posts. I would say that the majority of marriages I have observed in my lifetime have stayed together simply because the alternative is to frightening to one or both partners, so that's nothing really new or surprising. Regarding attractive women being manipulative...I've also viewed that everywhere. Even if they don't have harmful intent, most beautiful women I know have learned to pout, flirt, and show the perfect amount of skin to make life easier in any situation. Again, no surprise, but it never hurts to be reminded of such things, especially by a woman who has nothing to gain from giving such advice

If I modeled my behavior pattern after all the bad cases I've seen in my life, I would either become a 'hump 'em and dump 'em' sort of guy, or a monk. Jeeze, I grew up in Southern California, where beautiful women from around the country congregate and practice. One of my best friends was a woman who I knew since she was about 15. Grew up to be an incredibly beautiful woman, and she was the regional Division 1 champion of manipulating guys. Since we had no sexual chemistry, probably in no small part since I knew her for so long, we would often discuss manipulating men, and she would give me live demonstrations of her 'social experiments' on random strangers in bars & pool halls. She'd usually pick the guy who acted the most as if he were god's gift to women Though it was fascinating, it still makes me paranoid to this day Again, thanks to my best friend and worst enemy, testosterone, I can still fall victim I'm sure, but I have no illusions about manipulation. That includes illusions about who could manipulate whom...you say cute girls flirt with their professors to improve their grades? Um, that's not really unique to Ukraine. And if you asked the professors, they might say, "Yeah, I dangle a good grade in front of a pretty student so I can have a chance of seeing a little skin."

In fact, I must confess to playing the same game once or twice. In University, I had a professor who was flamboyantly gay. I took it upon myself to make an effort to engage him in lively, animated, irrelevant conversations with him when I had the spare time, and the extra attention he gave me I have no doubt helped my grades. (I can imagine the reactions of some people who might read this...no I didn't turn tricks for a grade, and I'm secure enough not to feel threatened by a gay guy )

Desperate times can bring out certain tendencies towards manipulation, but I have seen people who have called me 'friend' try to cheat me, even if they have no monetary stresses in their life, and were in fact considerably more endowed with liquid assets. Another, inverse situation -- in Latin America, a guy from a dirt-poor family (literally...as in dirt floors and living in an aluminum-sided hut) tracked down the flea-bite hotel I was staying in to return my wallet. I wasn't there, so the desk clerk, also dirt poor, kept it safe and forwarded it to where I was staying later, all before I even knew the wallet was missing -- and nothing was 'lightened' from the wallet. Character is character, and poverty alone doesn't make someone act sleazy or not... though I would also not blame someone for being 'ethically flexible' to better their own situation.

That's why I have a really, REALLY good lawyer...

OK, where is she from? I can already hear the "Poor Elegua" moans from across the planet...Lugansk.

[Edited by elegua on 14th May 2002 at 04:59]
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 13th May 2002, 23:59
elegua elegua is offline
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the irony

Hi again SN...I just wanted to mention that the irony of this situation is not lost on me. Even if I were to take your own statements at face value, there's something funny listening to relationship advice from someone who is an admitted manipulator who essentially thinks men are all gullible. I'm not saying that to be harsh, and I'm not saying I won't listen to you...I'm just pointing out...well...like I said, the irony. But I don't want to seem unappreciative, and I do sincerely thank you for your insights, past and hopefully future, because so far at least I don't think you have anything to gain by misleading me.

And I've been to several countries that would make Ukraine seem like the United States in relative wealth, so I'm not exactly naive

[Edited by elegua on 14th May 2002 at 05:06]
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 14th May 2002, 06:15
SweetNovember SweetNovember is offline
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Smile Hi Elegua

Look, I am sure you are going to enjoy your trip to Ukraine. Getting to know her, meeting her family, learning a new culture, trying local cuisine (hope you are not vegetarian), surviving vodka-drinking binges - you'll have quite a few stories to tell.
The key is that you don't have any illusions. I wouldn't. You are going to observe their family dynamics? How on earth are you going to do it? Relying too much on reading somebody's body language can trick you into very wrong conclusions - you'll never know what the people are going to be saying. I'll keep silent about Lugansk, something tells me you already heard a lot .

The irony is I am a Ukrainian girl who has a deep-rooted solidarity with American men. This doesn't happen often Two of my 'best friends in the world' are American guys. Not only would I trust my life on them, I owe them for making me a better person. I know a dozen more American guys closely enough to call them friends. They are smart, well-traveled, successful, but they are soooo naive when it comes to women.

Yeah, I'm an admitted manipulator - the only reason I admit it is because I no longer enjoy it. After years of lies and manipulation that were forced on me by my culture, I have discovered that being myself, being truthful feels so much better. Your experience with a gay professor is hilarious. Its not often that guys would have that kind of experiences. But imagine a life, where every second person you meet is a gay professor I envy American girls who can grow up without having to go through all this crap. Well, there are some who learn, as your friend, but there so many who simply enjoy being who they are. I feel sad when I see people claiming Ukrainian girls are (mostly) shy, decent, good-natured. Because their still were skirts, put on make up, and pretend to have submissive disposition? Well, sorry to say this, but decent girls are a lot easier to find in the US than here.

The problem is that Ukrainian girls take American guys who are nice and kind and whose only fault quite often is that of being isolated for too long somewhere in Middle America with whopper-like American women, and they ruin their lives.

Another thing, Ukrainian women are mean. In essence, that's what distinguishes Ukrainian mentality from American. This is a country of bitter and ill-intentioned people. I am sorry to say it, but especially in Eastern Ukraine. Maybe this is the reason why it is still in ruins. You are going to be a guest, so you are unlikely to notice it. But you can trust me on that as a local. What surprises me is how natural it is for people here. Everyone is afraid of 'evil eye', of being cursed, of being hurt by somebody's envy. People can be mean to other people just because they enjoy being mean. Your wallet story would have had a different ending here...

Well, sorry for rambling on. I think you are sophisticated enough to be aware of all the possible dangers. But admit it, not every American guy is. Or maybe Im wrong and nave in my own way? I dont know

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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 14th May 2002, 06:29
Ulysses Ulysses is offline
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Getting suckered in...

Hey Elegua - Lugansk, you say...No comment! Funny thing you said about your friend the manipulator...I had a friend who was like that too...I remember my uni days...I swear, my friend never wrote any report herself! lol.

SN - I agree with you. If an American guy can't play the game with American women...Then he will get slapped silly in the CIS.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 16th May 2002, 16:46
map2uk map2uk is offline
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Take a look at http://www.faceparty.com

Lokk at how the lasses behave, what they want, what they look like and then come to your decision.
As far as Ukraine.com goes yes half the women write 2 letters declaring their love then expect you to open your wallet.
Guys use the proper agencies live aforeignaffiar.com and you won't ripped off and find genuine ladies.
Personally I am really looking forward to my trip to Russia/Ukraine to meet several ladies I am talking to currently.
Just hope my knowledge of the language holds up ;-)
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 16th May 2002, 18:08
jutka jutka is offline
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Can you be more specific about that site? Who should I look up? What do you mean by how they behave? If you help me out a bit more I can respond more fully.
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